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Anything Goes? [message #1864] Mon, 12 August 2019 18:23 Go to next message
Joja is currently offline  Joja
Messages: 42
Registered: May 2000

Deity of Love, Loyalty, Diplomacy & Nature

Quote:

Berghalad: New Era of Light
Mon Jun 17 23:09:07 2019
To: all
Long have we kept the Shadow at bay to protect and
nurture the citizens of Thera from the threat of vice.
The lands have prospered and life abounds anew with each
passing day be it in the wilderness or at the marketplace.
However, one must always be vigilant to ensure such things
endure. Slowly, the Temple makes it presence known with
the Bokor returning to Thera after having licked its wounds.
With such being said, we of the DOme strive to have new blood
to usher in the new defense against our age-old enemies, the
Depraved. All occupations may apply but we seek mostly those
of monks, elementalists, rangers and thieves. Furthermore,
the doors have been open to those select few of neutrality
that have obstained from sin to enter the ranks of the Dome.
Seek out myself, Grand General Brombarn or Captain Engerek
if such things interest you as well as sending an application.

High Inquisitor Berghalad




Several days to a week after I read that note in game, I was asked by a player about whether
that was right, that Light was now accepting neutrals. According to that note, yep, sure
enough, but was this sanctioned by the immortals? By any immortal of Light?

No idea. Ye'd think a change that big would have been announced to the rest of the immortal
staff, eh?

For what it's worth, I just checked the alignments of every mortal in House Light, and every
one of them is good. >>>Not a single member of House Light is, at this time, neutral in alignment.<<<

Then, not long after, I get a private message about an AP being inducted into Conclave, with
the blame for said induction upon the AP himself, not the Master of the Tower who inducted him.

Apparently this "New Era of Light" is spreading its corruption to the Conclave, which I as an
immortal overseer of Crusader would consider typical of the tainted House taking on even more
of a tainting.

So one early A.M. I'm in the game and I do a who, and besides myself and a newbie, this shows up:

[51 Chnge A-P] [Helper] [CONCLAVE] Junin Machupo the Anti-Hero of Pestilence

Sure enough, an AP was inducted into Conclave. I checked the logs and discovered who inducted him.
Feroz, the MoT.

Sanctioned by the immortals? I don't know. If an immortal sanctioned this, it was not communicated
to the rest of us. For sure, I didn't get the memo. Not on this, and not on what prompted Berghalad's
note to all concerning "New Era of Light".

Ye'd think that since I run the opposing House, the immortal who sanctioned this would have, by way of
courtesy, let me know that such a change was being made. I'd certainly think so anyway. I think I'm on
good terms with all the immortals here and there's no need to go behind my back on stuff like this, so
I'm not going to point a finger at any immortals for either situation (although, to be fair, while Light
appears to have slipped into a major bout of iniquity, it's more likely that there are no neutral players
who fit Berghalad's requirement of being free of the taint of evil).

Now, before ye all go and jump all over Junin about this, I don't care how persuasive he is, I don't care
how good or bad a player he is in anyone's opinion (I have my own opinion about him as a player in DM and
as a person, and nobody's opinion is going to change mine), this is ultimately >>>not his fault<<< because
he did not induct himself. Got that? I'm not faulting Junin and neither should anyone else.

Now, in my defense, sorrily weak as it may be, I did some RP with Junin that morning to let him know how I
felt about his having been inducted into the Conclave. I kept it entirely in character, because as an
immortal who has worked closely with many if not all of the old school imms, I consider myself rather a bit
knowledgeable in the affairs of these Houses, certainly in their origins and what their creators wanted for
them. Imparting that information to Junin in character, I did let him know that as far as I knew, Riallus,
who created the House of the Wizards of Conclave, did not want any but pure mage class joining it because, in
his very prejudiced opinion, true mages did not need warriors to help them out. To Riallus, anyone not of the
pure mage classes was unworthy of membership in his elite House. (Arcana allowed this on many levels, but Conclave
did not. Arcana also fell. Badly. I didn't mention this to Junin in character because it did not seem necessary
to my RP argumentation, but it's common knowledge among old school players.)

So where do we go from here?

By the same logic as Berghalad used in his note to all, Depraved could probably slip even further into the
depths of evil and bring in folk that Isimsiz and the rest of the evil scourges of the heavens would not consider
worthy. Have they already done so? I don't know. They're probably scared to death of Isi eating them alive and
spitting out their bones.

[Please note: the following has NOT been implemented. Not yet, anyway.]

By the same logic, Crusader could drop the "honor" part of the Code of Honor and simply employ themselves as a
House against magic, honor be damned. (Earliest Crusader didn't give a flip about Honor as we know about it in
the game the last 19 years - Darkwood becoming immortal pretty much pushed the Honor Code into the House and it's
been there ever since, to the misery of many a Crusader who was ganged up on after telling his Housemates to bugger
off while he had honorable battle with some mage.) In addition, I could drop the whole situation where the Crusaders
who want the "purify" skill have to give me a good artistic performance of some sort before I'll teach them that
skill which neutralizes the ability to use magical transportation and simply give it to every new dagger that gets
inducted. Forget pushing high quality roleplay, induction == ye got it all, baby!

I'm not much of a coder, so removing the need to be pure of the taint of magic in order to have full Crusader powers
is not something I can easily manipulate in the code. But don't breathe a sigh of relief yet, magic-lovers. I do
have some understanding of how the code treats the power of spellbane and battlecry, as well as how the code treats
the strength, or lack thereof, of the power of the trophy (aka poncho). They've been at reasonable levels for many
years, but that was providing that the reasonable limitations of other Houses were also intact. With Feroz inducting
an AP into Conclave, the balance of power shifted. Junin may be correct where he's argued elsewhere that he's not as
all-powerful as people think he is because certain Conclave powers had been modified/weakened over the years, but he's
probably the poster child for what happens when someone who has some heavy duty mastery of the game gets something that
could be considered overpowered. Again, I'm not blaming Junin for any of this. I place the blame entirely upon Feroz for
inducting him.

So, let me know:

Do I need to adjust Crusader so that it'll be a playa in this nuclear one-upmanship that Conclave started?

Are the immortals on board with what Light has proposed and Conclave has committed?

Or shall we return to the old status quo where Light was Good, Conclave was totally Mage, Crusaders were Honorable, and
Joja didn't threaten to and open a can of whoop-ass on the whole MUD?

(Remember that MUD referred to as POS because anyone could join any House no matter what, mages in Crusader, warriors in
Conclave or Arcana or whatever the magic House was, and the anything goes situation might have been fun for a little bit,
but after a while, it was just plain boring? Is that what you want out of DM? Turn it into POS?)

An inquiring mind wants to know. Just saying.

---JJ---

Re: Anything Goes? [message #1865 is a reply to message #1864] Tue, 13 August 2019 07:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rhea is currently offline  Rhea
Messages: 135
Registered: April 2017

the Enchanting Heroine of Object Manipulation
JJ, I want to start off with saying how much I respect you and everything you've contributed over the years. You've made a lot of good points, but I don't think the idea of turning this into an "arms race" between Conclave and Crusader is the right idea.

You hit the nail on the head, in my opinion. No one is talking. Immortals are all but gone, and I think you may be the very last one left. Role play has not been really enforced in months, people rolling with whatever name they want, etc. Houses have been left unattended to and super easy to get into with little to no maintenance to stay in. The mud for a lack of better terms is a rudderless ship. Before we start sinking this ship, let's get it back on course. Simply put we need new immortals to take up the role of leadership to police RP, house politics and whatnot. It is time to pass control over to new people who want to be active and a positive influence on this mud. That is how we can save this. No one can fault Nyrisia for moving on, having bigger fish to fry IRL... it's time to know when you need to step down and pass this game on, or let it go. It is turning into the POS you referenced.

Hero characters as so disposable nowadays it isn't funny, and a housed hero isn't much better. With the right person on Facebook you're in the only house who's doors are closed, but have 0 activity in the mud. Why have we gotten to this point... because standards were taken away. Testing is gone. And if one guy shows up to try and change that, they leave frustrated because the leadership of some houses has turned into a dynasty for one player. They hold on and remain, not changed to make the mud better just they've been their the longest so hell make them leader....

Anyways I don't want this to be a rant about what's wrong... let's focus on what we can do to make it right. We NEED active immortals. Time to recruit new blood.

Re: Anything Goes? [message #1866 is a reply to message #1864] Tue, 13 August 2019 18:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Feroz is currently offline  Feroz
Messages: 14
Registered: February 2019

the Enchanting Master of the Tower
+1 on Rhea's note, much of what I would have said.

And agreed, don't be mad at Junin. If what I did was wrong, then who is there to help govern such. I must admit I don't know all of the do's and don'ts instilled upon the realms by previous immortal leaders. Perhaps I committed a big "no-no." Sorry.

I have been back since February after a many years away from DM, and I have only seen 3 immortals (two of which I had to bug via email), and then Joja which I have had a chance to speak with a few times. Smile
Re: Anything Goes? [message #1867 is a reply to message #1866] Tue, 13 August 2019 21:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Junin is currently offline  Junin
Messages: 11
Registered: June 2019

the Anti-Hero of Pestilence
Poor Feroz here didn't even know freaking journals existed until last week. He got given MoT without any instruction then whoever did that peaced out.
Re: Anything Goes? [message #1868 is a reply to message #1865] Wed, 14 August 2019 19:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Zhantariel is currently offline  Zhantariel
Messages: 53
Registered: August 2016

the Elemental Heroine, Mistress of the Tower
Funny enough when people get made IMMs they seem to quickly disappear (seems like the trend the last 5-10 years).
The IMMs who mattered are all 40-50 years old now with other things to do. Could we even find five people to put in ten hours a week?
Don't think much of what is discussed in Joja's post matters at this point, let the few remaining actives have their fun I say.

[Updated on: Wed, 14 August 2019 19:31]

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Re: Anything Goes? [message #1869 is a reply to message #1868] Thu, 15 August 2019 07:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rhea is currently offline  Rhea
Messages: 135
Registered: April 2017

the Enchanting Heroine of Object Manipulation
I actually think you could find some people, if they'd let them. You're right, a couple of the recent people to IMM bounced as quickly as they came. Just need to pick the right people.

Or you're right, let it just go and accept that's where it's going. Obviously no one is really watching. We have the weirdest names being rolled lately, etc.
Re: Anything Goes? [message #1870 is a reply to message #1869] Thu, 15 August 2019 12:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Zhantariel is currently offline  Zhantariel
Messages: 53
Registered: August 2016

the Elemental Heroine, Mistress of the Tower
Apologies to Joja , I should have said 'most of the IMMs that mattered are gone now' . Joja is awesome and hugely impactful but sadly there's nobody else of the main admins active afaik.

[Updated on: Thu, 15 August 2019 12:22]

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Re: Anything Goes? [message #1871 is a reply to message #1864] Thu, 15 August 2019 14:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eldran is currently offline  Eldran
Messages: 5
Registered: August 2019

the Learned of Kung-Fu
Holy lord it's been so long. Anyway I had a big reply typed out and just deleted it because really a few of you said it best. JJ is the awesome but she can't do it all alone.

Anyway catch you all in game as I am trying to get the hang of it again after being gone for so long

Eldran/Istrvoir and so many others
Re: Anything Goes? [message #1873 is a reply to message #1864] Fri, 16 August 2019 20:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Alizaeh is currently offline  Alizaeh
Messages: 55
Registered: May 2017

the Enchanting Heroine of Object Manipulation
Jj I am 29 years old, been witness to this game since I was 12 with a close family member being my entry way. I could never be and have tried but some are different. You are one of the few who has always been generous, kind, and never held a vendetta if they sold you short. You have spent years with people selling you short or falling through, I myself all those years ago. You have shown a love regardless, I am glad that love is a tenet, and one of the three that is strong. I am with you whatever you decide. Joja, not your servant.

Bein Gannel, Fallen from Grace.
Re: Anything Goes? [message #1875 is a reply to message #1873] Sun, 18 August 2019 15:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rhea is currently offline  Rhea
Messages: 135
Registered: April 2017

the Enchanting Heroine of Object Manipulation
JJ, are you willing to comment on the idea of new Immortal leadership? Nyrisia is gone, or inactive or whatever. Would you consider taking over command of the mud and heading up a fresh new team to carry the mud forward? We always run into this wall... the conversation is started, ideas are put out there but it just stops.

I noticed another person comment they'd be willing code, another said they'd pay for costs. I think there is active, or formerly active players that would enjoy taking on an immortal presence and contribute to the future of DM. I am one of those people and I hate speaking for someone but I'm certain Junin would be too.
Re: Anything Goes? [message #1876 is a reply to message #1864] Sun, 18 August 2019 22:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ramius is currently offline  Ramius
Messages: 2
Registered: January 2019

the Thief Hero
I know that this is coming kind of out of the blue, I have been a long time DM player (since the beginning) and leave and come back, again and again.
I have worked in the video game industry since 1999 (and tech in general since 1996), and I now am the studio head for a game development studio (SF Bay area & Vancouver, BC). I would love to help breathe some new life into DM, not only with getting a fair amount of new regular players (I know that most of my team would love to give it a whirl), and I am sure that some of my developers would be willing to put some time in coding if I asked them to.

In the past I thought about trying to become an IMM because I really wanted to get more involved, but I was raising 5 kids at the time, and never had time to be able to commit the way I would need to. Most of my kids are now married or in college or high school, so I have more time for sure now. I have HUGE respect for JJ, who has really kept DM together in my opinion, and I would love to see some of the old DM fire come back.

Let me know what I can do Smile
-T
Re: Anything Goes? [message #1877 is a reply to message #1876] Mon, 19 August 2019 11:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Barker is currently offline  Barker
Messages: 29
Registered: August 2018

the Knight Hero, Warlord of the Neverending Crusades
I have some suggestions Joja. Can we get the ability purify anything? I wouldn't mind a physical focus ring, and I know having some extra hasters would be very welcome. I don't personally need it, but a few crusaders would probably also love the strange girdle. You get the idea. Can we allow mages to convert to supplication, but keep their same abilities. I.e., if they go through the purity quest, they can become `clerics` of crusader. Same rules for transport spells like gate/summon of course, I don't want to ask too much. But I'd love to have a nightwalker in crusader. I don't think it would be overpowered, they wouldn't be allowed to night walk, so they'd be a lot more killable. Also, with supplication magic now, I think it'd be great if our paladin acted as a healer in the keep. I feel like it's way overdue that we get a healer.
Re: Anything Goes? [message #1878 is a reply to message #1877] Mon, 19 August 2019 12:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Junin is currently offline  Junin
Messages: 11
Registered: June 2019

the Anti-Hero of Pestilence
Eh. I deleted my smartassery. No point in joining rediculousness.

[Updated on: Mon, 19 August 2019 12:38]

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Re: Anything Goes? [message #1879 is a reply to message #1878] Mon, 19 August 2019 13:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Morris is currently offline  Morris
Messages: 20
Registered: April 2017

the Swift Blade
I'm in agreement with a lot of what's been said here. I haven't played seriously in a good while due to work, kids, and just generally not having the time to invest into doing a character correctly. However, even from my limited perspective, it's been apparent for a long time that the MUD needs a lot of time and attention invested into it, if it is going to continue on or thrive.

Joja, thanks for sticking in there for as long as you have. Are there any other regularly contributing staff members left? Who is currently running the show (admin)? Who is currently keeping the lights on? A good number of people have expressed interest in helping out in the past; has anything come of that? Is there a list or spreadsheet of contact info for people interested in being financial backers/coders/staff?


- Ornlu/Lerius
Re: Anything Goes? [message #1880 is a reply to message #1879] Mon, 19 August 2019 20:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rhea is currently offline  Rhea
Messages: 135
Registered: April 2017

the Enchanting Heroine of Object Manipulation
@Barker

Why the mountains of ridiculousness? We are trying to have a constructive conversation about the future of the mud... if this is the general attitude towards what's going to come of the mud then sure, let's do the free for all idea...

Hope we can get an official response from the immortal team soon.
Re: Anything Goes? [message #1881 is a reply to message #1880] Mon, 19 August 2019 22:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Barker is currently offline  Barker
Messages: 29
Registered: August 2018

the Knight Hero, Warlord of the Neverending Crusades
You guys went off topic in a way that I found not meaningful. If you want to help, apply to be an imm. That's what the last few did. It worked. Donate to the mud. Actually vote on the Iclemore's thread. Start writing an area. Or I guess keep doing this...

The topic was about the arms race being started, so I went over the top to bring the attention back. My conjecture is that a nightwalker in crusader with current restrictions, would be less powerful than a famine AW in Conclave with their current rule set. But nobody wants that. The rules in place work. Junin is just trying to work the system because he thinks he can get away with it. If people are fine with that, I say offer a fair counterbalance to Crusader to even things out. Which was Joja's point, and the threads point.

[Updated on: Mon, 19 August 2019 22:30]

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Re: Anything Goes? [message #1882 is a reply to message #1881] Mon, 19 August 2019 22:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rhea is currently offline  Rhea
Messages: 135
Registered: April 2017

the Enchanting Heroine of Object Manipulation
I think there was a lot more to it than that. But whatever man, I'm done posting. I think I'm done with this place, donating isn't the answer, people who've applied for a place in the immortal seat and would do well in it have been ignored, and those who recently immed (palmis aside) haven't done much with the role.

I'd love for you to show me where people applying "worked" or donating "worked".

Anyways! I'm out. Not beating a dead horse anymore.
Re: Anything Goes? [message #1883 is a reply to message #1882] Tue, 20 August 2019 01:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Junin is currently offline  Junin
Messages: 11
Registered: June 2019

the Anti-Hero of Pestilence
Well, if you insist on discussing it, lets discuss the arms race over the years.

Crusaders powers haven't changed in a dogs lifetime. Meanwhile, claves has been nerfed repeatedly. Both dawn and night sect have been hit with the nerf bat over and over again (even twilights taken a hit with isims obsession with giving every mob holylight). But, lets not go into dawns, since that's not the subject here. The subject is how aps would start an 'arms race' in clave. I mean... that's a joke, right?

Channel : modifies hp by 569 for about 6 hrs and 35 mins

<1735hp 839mn 240mv 28753tnl>

That and hang are what i get out of clave, also, to note, hang is basically the equivelent of mark of purity for Crusader. Spiritblade is a joke damage wise. Seize is unusable on anything that might actually matter in a pk sit... who am i kidding, in any situation whatsoever. Cysts is less damaging than judo or arborian mental feedback. Also, that's another archwizard power.

You're average claver ap and nightwalker will have an hp buff. That's what they get out of it.

Let's look at how this breaks down, pk wise. Pk wise, I personally have three area attacks, one of them is slightly annoying to crusaders: bane. Now, bane is a two round lag, has crap for damage, and can stack poison and plague. Famines, sure, sure, they get esurience. but once again, they already have that, all they would really be gaining is hp. One could argue the mega-tank depraved gives you is a better investment. So really, clave doesn't add much in the way of deadliness to an ap set up.

Lets take a look at the nightwalker setup. SLIGHTLY better off, as they have strangle. So, they can actually ko you. However, they can then... do absolutely nothing that won't hit your spellbane and wake you. also, they have no way of knowing when your spellbane will wear so... pffbltt. Same situation, about the same hp, and really a lack of getting anything else from 'op clave powers'.

Now then, lets take a look at the other end of the coin. Sader powers. Never nerfed. In the mean time, weapon damage goes from 26 being common, to every sader easily having an average 30+ sharp ap weapon. heck, lets even boost strife and make it limit 2 (isims mort just HAD to have one). Fist of earth being buffed, given sharp, non pulsing, and limit 2. But wait: there's more. They get buffed, absurd stat races, warrior subs, expert and advanced weapon, so on. sure, not direct buffs to crusader. But buffs that matter. the slow escalation of the value of loot in the game has most impacted crusader: especially where weapons are concerned. higher diceroll weapons, with higher damage multipliers, feeds right into sader 5x deathblow for more and more frequent oneshots. Yah barker: you oneshot people. And yet whenever i'm online, you have urgent business with kagmusha (read, self admitting afking to keep from purging, not actually playing) because you're afraid i'm going to what, get a 1/10 shot through spellbane and also land the 1/10 on pws before you instantslay me?

lets not even mention crusader changing to allow clerics and paladins. Such an arms race, much wow!

But please, tell me how me being a gimped necro in clave is op some more. If you want fair counterbalance: Remove purify entirely, nerf spellbane rate, and recall needs a 50% fail rate. Because being an ap (or night sect in general) in clave isn't a plus over the other option out there.

[Updated on: Tue, 20 August 2019 01:49]

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Re: Anything Goes? [message #1884 is a reply to message #1864] Tue, 20 August 2019 05:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kensei is currently offline  Kensei
Messages: 4
Registered: October 2018

the Shadow Dagger
I prefer the constructive version of this thread rather than the destructive, but I can speak to both.

Houses: We have four. Crusader and Conclave are nigh impossible to get into due to their "questing" processes at present. Who needs anything RP-related in Clave where your requirement is total spell mastery. Crusader has a really awesome RP questing process but you can't complete it because part of it involves other Crusaders who are never around. Having alts in other houses is supposed to be frowned upon, right? I'll forgo mentioning Light and Depraved because of things that go on in both houses that shouldn't.

Staffing: Bueller? Bueller? We have Joja, and yes she is awesome. But we obviously need more with everything going on right now, this issue being a case in point. I get that she doesn't want to step on anyone's toes and start making important decisions on her own, but someone has to get in the game here or it's all for nothing.

AP in Clave: I don't blame Junin for trying his experiment. He's RP'ed it well, he's not buffed. Hell, my centaur defender had more HP. Centaur defender in Light vs Changeling Pesty AW in Clave and we were pretty evenly matched, he's just a much better player than me and that was his advantage in our fights. Is he OP? Hell no. Is it something that should continue, AP's etc in Conclave? Nope. I do wish we could expand houses more to allow for a wider variety of race/class combos. But this isn't Junin's fault. It's not Feroz's fault. The staff dropped the ball here without providing better supervision, especially with a leader who doesn't seem familiar with the procedures that have been in place since Clave was established. Not dissing Feroz at all.. it's the he can do best in a hard situation.

End of the day we have to accept that JJ needs help cause it sure seems like she's the only IMM who gives a three-dollar damn here anymore.

[Updated on: Tue, 20 August 2019 05:45]

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Re: Anything Goes? [message #1885 is a reply to message #1884] Tue, 20 August 2019 09:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Barker is currently offline  Barker
Messages: 29
Registered: August 2018

the Knight Hero, Warlord of the Neverending Crusades
tl;dr - I'm not asking for conclave nerfs, just staying with the current rules. If we're going to change the current rules, let's add something to Crusader to make up for it. I think Joja's suggestions were a lot more appropriate, my previous ones were a bit over the top, but I was also trying to be over the top.



Look, I'm not trying to start a flame war. I just want to stay on thread topic. So I'll try and address points in a very specific manner here, without the accusations.

1. The imm application process worked for Isimsiz, Illunus, the last two immortals who tried it. It worked for about 40%(guesstimate, because I only know the application process started around Xurinos time, i don't actually have numbers) of the other immortals. And the staff has constantly asked for new ones. Fizzfaldt was recruited by Xurinos. The staff needs help, but contrary to what a few players say, they have tried to recruit. I encourage everyone involved in this thread to try to join. Send an application. Even if you can't code, they're looking for RP and area imms as well. Though if you can code, please try. Everyone would be grateful. Again, not knocking anyone for trying to help, but it's not the thread topic. Please do try to help.

2. Donating has worked, the lights are still on.

3. Don't threaten to quit the game after someone has a difference of opinion with you. That's just weird.

4. I play the game too. I've lead both Conclave and Crusader. I know how their powers work. Can you think of a combination in Crusader equivalent to an AP AW and any twilighter using venuport to jump to a player and hang pws, blind, and curse? That's a more powerful setup than what you could do in Brethren. Maybe some players would be resistant to it. Certainly a centaur defender in light would be harder to bring down. But is that not true of a centaur defender in light against, anything? The potential for abuse in these sorts of combinations is staggering. Depraved had one real OP power, with a mob that could block retreat, and that was nerfed because it was too much. All your justifications about how it's not OP remind me of every other lottery character who's said the same. You know the game. You know what can work. You didn't roll a nosub lemniscate warrior for conclave, a dwarf enchanter, etc... You rolled something you thought you could do crazy things with. And you've justified it with, hey really guys, it's not that strong. Also no one cares, so get over it. I don't agree. I'm not even arguing to nerf conclave, just to keep the current rules. I don't think my opinion is that extreme.

5. I'm not going to raid you, ever. I don't want to encourage you to play. I'd rather you delete that character than reward you for breaking the rules. And if you keep hopping on when I raid other Conclavers, I'll just stop raiding until you do delete.

6. The rest of your thread is a bit much to cover. Gear has increased for everyone, and a lot of it hasn't gone well for sader. A bit of a history lesson here, but the fist of earth and a few other items were changed specifically by Isimsiz to keep Crusader in the game. He started purifying gear and changing old gear when it was pointed out how much of the new stuff wasn't sader friendly, and how little they'd gained for the equipment changes. It's very easy to get 60+ spellpower now for instance, which makes blinding crusaders pretty simple. I don't find this especially relevant to the discussion, but can go in further detail if desired. I think it was mostly just distraction to pull away attention from the issue. [Edited] Removed my deathblow comment as it involved player details. I'm going to try to be a bit more sensitive to that after my last post.

7. Do you see a lot of clerics in crusader? I will admit, there have been plenty of paladins. But I don't think they really have the same stopping potential as other classes. But again, that's so old news, I think this is mostly distraction.

8. Conclave goodies should be nerfed. Any goodie conclaver AW and above is a powerhouse. I think the evil conclave nerfs probably went too far. Seize is pretty worthless as is. But I found hang and cysts to be worth rolling evil clavers. Multiple times. Hang is awesome. But again, I'm not arguing for nerfs here, just adherence to the current rules.



Let me know if I missed anything. Happy mudding. Please send in immortal applications if you're serious about helping.

[Updated on: Tue, 20 August 2019 09:52]

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Re: Anything Goes? [message #1886 is a reply to message #1885] Tue, 20 August 2019 14:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Junin is currently offline  Junin
Messages: 11
Registered: June 2019

the Anti-Hero of Pestilence
So, some of those weren't responses to me, so i'll be numbering my responses to relate to yours, barker.

The first however, isn't numbered: It's not a rule. it's tradition. JJ is threatening buffs and you are suggesting buffs based on the idea that conclave is somehow vastly more effective by allowing hybrid classes. And yes, I'm widening the argument: We have a wonderful nightwalker applicant currently who this nonsense is holding up from further enjoying his character on the mud. We also had a player interested in playing a cleric.

4a. Can I think of an equivalent combo... Any hunter or thief combined with any other class in crusader. The houses aren't equivalent. Wish you could think of an effective combo though. You seriously seem to overestimate stun. First off, it's a directed spell. Just like the other two mentioned. meaning it needs to pierce spellbane. Then, it has a 1/10 land rate, i think it was? might have been 1/8. It was flat coded when it got buffed. So, for your example to carry any weight, you're talking about me beating spellbane three times, beating your saves, and beating a 10% success roll.

I'm also going to take this a step further: Crusader is designed to not need an ally. I can think of several things that can beat that combination out BY THEMSELVES in crusader. A griffon defender, any zerk, any ranger, a nosub at his own guardian.

A naked halfling cleric who has the brains to run to an autoassist or null magic room because somone is dumb enough to repeatedly venue to him.


4b. Actually pesti's fair particularly well against defenders, it's how I was able to get kalanaonar to join ancient: by beating him. Malmagica is absolute destruction against them.

4c. Depraved has totem for travel, and that mob is still a huge tank with an absurd amount of HP, much more than the conclaver buff. I'd be better off with dirt, flee, and return with that mob than I am with 500 extra hp.

4d. (hah, fourty!) I'm not a lotto character. this combo is easily rolled by anybody.

4e. You're absolutely right. I know what can work. and I know what can be op. and I didn't roll a dawn claver: that should be your first hint right there that that's not what I'm doing. I rolled a character with an interesting roleplay that I was sure wouldn't be absolute shit, and able to hold his own and not get steamrolled, because I liked the idea of an ap in clave from a roleplay and novelty standpoint. Believe it or not, it gets boring rolling powercombos that get in one pk then everyone starts logging out when they see you. It's not a good use of my time.

4f. You're wrong. First off, people care, yourself included, else you'd not be bothering with this. Second, not everyone agrees with your opinion, get over it. You're also arguing to buff crusader, not nerf conclave. There's no reason crusader needs a buff even with this tradition thrown out the window. That's the point. Your counter to it is that i could win the lottery on three rolls when double teaming you outside of your house with another leader of my house and then manage to beat you down before you get a lucky deathblow and instant slay me, and run off or possibly slay feroz. That's a really poor argument, in my humble opinion.

5. Cool story. No rules are being broken. I'm not planning on deleting. JJ hasn't asked me to delete or leave the house (And I'm sure she knows i'd do so in a heartbeat if she did). Feroz doesn't plan on it. Enjoy the rest of your toon botting at Kagmusha (coincidentally, also against tradition but not rules). Regarding the insinuation of co-ordinated logins,
3 Junin 39 hrs in 23 days ( 0 Days Ago): Tue Aug 20 18:52:16 2019
That happens when you're an active player. If it was a co-ordinated login i'd have instantly hung three spells (amusingly not even the three you keep naming), and slammed you with them before you left. Instead, I was busy telling Feroz there's no way you'd raid and he was busy explaining to me that you were actually already inside. Le facepalm.

6. It's really not. you're just saying that because there's really no way to address it other than 'd'oh, you're right!'. 60+ spellpower has been attainable since Fizzfaldt ran an event for 2 sp formulas. I think outlaw was still active at the time. These weapons, 100 damroll easily with no negatives, -30 svs in a single item, have not. Also, the point here is scaling. Yes, there is more mage gear now. But what does mage gear do for us mages? It makes it easier to land mals, and secondary spell affects. there's been discussion that it might assist with spellcraft kicking in (hybrids don't get spellcraft). More windwalls, more blinds (assuming we can get them through spellbane) so on, so forth. What does damroll and sharp ap av 30 weapons do for crusader: It literally scales their odds of instant burst damage slay. You're attempting to compare my ability to land a blind on you to your ability to INSTANTLY KILL. Is this really the comparison you want to be making?

7. I mean I've been two of them. Clerics in crusader. and you've really hit the nail on the head: They don't have the same stopping power as other classes. Neither do hybrids in Conclave. Interesting side note: crusader god cleric spells were to bypass spellbane, another one of those things Ny never coded. It IS old news. But it was just as groundbreaking and tradition breaking at the time. It's meant to show that your arguing against a similar expansion.


Lastly, a point of my own, directed to everyone. People get excited about new things. Myself included. I've been excited playing Junin. There's been people who are meh about the game that love the idea of roleplaying a hybrid class in conclave, other than me. I understand that it is new and unusual, and from the opposing side of the fence, there's immediately an adverse reaction. I can only imagine it was exactly the same when sader expanded to accept clerics and paladins. I propose the following: Allow one of each class to join conclave, as a test run, on the condition that JJ (as the imm literally famous for being even-handed in things), can nix it at any time. Set the rp bar for them where it's been set for clerics and paladins in crusader. This would be a useful test run to see if there is a real problem with these classes in clave, or if it's just a few folk whining because it's not to their favor.

Once again, to re-iterate. I am and always will be respectful of the fact that I am playing on a mud that's not my own, and should an IMM drop down and say 'no way Jose, you can delete or leave the house.' I will.

[Updated on: Tue, 20 August 2019 14:40]

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Re: Anything Goes? [message #1887 is a reply to message #1886] Tue, 20 August 2019 18:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Iclemore is currently offline  Iclemore
Messages: 6
Registered: June 2019

the Monk Hero
Just a few things to point out:

1> Its primarily an RP mud. If the RP fits, if its not OP then sure.
Conclave is meant primarily as a place for mages to study the weave.

We should always allow the characters to join the house if the RP is good. There is no
reason a devout cleric of Xyza or Riallus would not behave in a very similar
manner so would be a great fit. Just because someone can't cast magic doesn't
mean they can't love and study it.

2> If there are major balance concerns, I believe there are already powers in place
to remove skills from a class as needed. We can simply look at it on a case by
case scenario.

I wouldn't have any objection either to Crusaders been able to use some healers in towns
and in their keep just by converting a few to supplications which shouldn't be hard.

I would argue that Crusader's skill set would be a bit OP if not for the strict honour
rules that leave them vulnerable to various tactics that wouldn't work on most, but really
its so luck dependent, I don't think its as effective as made out to be, you just remember
the times which everything stacked for or against you and bang DOES UNSPEAKABLE pops up Smile


-The sword is only as sharp as the one who wields it
Re: Anything Goes? [message #1888 is a reply to message #1885] Wed, 21 August 2019 04:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Percula is currently offline  Percula
Messages: 6
Registered: July 2019

the Heroine of Divine Wrath
Barker wrote on Tue, 20 August 2019 09:48

4. I play the game too. I've lead both Conclave and Crusader. I know how their powers work. Can you think of a combination in Crusader equivalent to an AP AW and any twilighter using venuport to jump to a player and hang pws, blind, and curse? That's a more powerful setup than what you could do in Brethren.
I agree 100%, but Junin does not even need venuport to make a death trap anywhere in Thera that is not cursed. Junin likes to spout assumed facts and throw mud to cover that there is a reason that hybrid mages are not allowed in Conclave. The potential for abuse is absurd. Power stun is a save vs death. Those not familiar with SVD this is a behind the scenes dice roll that protects you from things like assassinate. There are 4 SVD and do not take into account any of your regular saves. When PWS was buffed by Aity he removed I believe 2 of the 4 checks on the SVD (I can not be 100% on the mechanics, but seeing as you can be unaffected, resist, or crushed to the ground it a safe bet its at least 2), but rest assured that it still is a SVD spell. This is the only protection you have against being unable to do anything for several rounds, and not being able to flee until the affect ends (and that nasty forget affect that makes you lose concentration constantly). Now one can get resistance or Immune negative (immune will stop stun from ever landing), but oddly the Immunity suit is missing... As for Junin's claim of 1 in 10 stuns land is false. PWS relies on a dice roll and luck. As for spellbane stopping stun, sure it can, but will it every time? No. ( I have landed stun on saders and had it landed on my saders, same with stoney grasp, and shadow strike Spellbane is not immune spells)...and all it takes is for PWS to land once and you are dead with nothing you can do but watch the text go by.
So with that said Junin can make a death trap basically anywhere, you strolling through ethshar boom your summoned/stunned in market square and there is nothing you can do. Junin claims that this ok because Crusader's house is flagged no_summon, and spellbane can block stun. Yet this is only a weak example of where it might fail "sometimes". Also you might want to consider that nothing is stopping Junin from doing this trap to anyone else who won't have those advantages. He is evil after all so Dome better watch their where very closely.

Junin wrote on Tue, 20 August 2019 01:18
That and hang are what i get out of clave, also, to note, hang is basically the equivelent of mark of purity for Crusader. Spiritblade is a joke damage wise. Seize is unusable on anything that might actually matter in a pk sit... who am i kidding, in any situation whatsoever. Cysts is less damaging than judo or arborian mental feedback. Also, that's another archwizard power.
Conlcave's powers have been nerfed over the years, and every time this is do to a Player abusing the power in a way it was not supposed to be used. Seize, I was responsible for few of these. I was seizing the Klagh that would get summoned under Arkham (lvl 60 hasted klagh with acid blast that ignored spellbane I miss that), another was charmed mobs ( I once got a a-p to charm thalior the spy in the giants castle, and I seized it. I could order him to hide and backstab). Others have contributed over the years as well Saturi(sp?) arborian temporal used to run around with chain lightning scrolls, and ruined them for everyone else.(chain lightning can no longer be scribed)....The point is Conclave is one of the most powerful houses in the Game, and nerfs were made when abuse or problems were seen.
Just like anything that is found after the fact that is deemed too powerful it is nerfed or removed...Punie you remember when Gnome Berserkers got wands of recalls nerfed?

Junin wrote on Tue, 20 August 2019 14:26

Lastly, a point of my own, directed to everyone. People get excited about new things. Myself included. I've been excited playing Junin. There's been people who are meh about the game that love the idea of roleplaying a hybrid class in conclave, other than me. I understand that it is new and unusual, and from the opposing side of the fence, there's immediately an adverse reaction. I can only imagine it was exactly the same when sader expanded to accept clerics and paladins. I propose the following: Allow one of each class to join conclave, as a test run, on the condition that JJ (as the imm literally famous for being even-handed in things), can nix it at any time. Set the rp bar for them where it's been set for clerics and paladins in crusader. This would be a useful test run to see if there is a real problem with these classes in clave, or if it's just a few folk whining because it's not to their favor.

Once again, to re-iterate. I am and always will be respectful of the fact that I am playing on a mud that's not my own, and should an IMM drop down and say 'no way Jose, you can delete or leave the house.' I will.
So you are not the fist non-mage to be inducted into Conclave. In Fact it has happen twice since I have been playing. In the Early days of Conclave a Paladin was inducted, and made it to Wizard before a imm saw what happened and stepped in. The Paladin was allowed to keep his character after harsh restriction were placed upon him, and breaking any of those was termination of his character. The Leader who inducted and promoted the paladin was punished and removed from conclave as I recall.
The Second time was a Cleric. He was apprenticed into Conclave with the understanding he would never move up in rank unless a immortal approved. When Nyrisia found out she went berserk, the Cleric was booted instantly and he disappeared entirely after. Arkydavyck(sp?) the Leader who inducted him was demoted down to apprentice (even though he never planned to promote the cleric without her blessing)

So its nothing new, and it is defiantly not a "tradition" that has kept non-mages out of Conclave. I do love how the word Rule and Policy some how changed into "Tradition" to make it more friendly that rules are being broken.

Junin wrote on Tue, 13 August 2019 21:07
Poor Feroz here didn't even know freaking journals existed until last week. He got given MoT without any instruction then whoever did that peaced out.
Junin wrote on Thu, 25 July 2019 12:51

Yes. I was able to do it because nobody cares. Kind of like how nobody has said a word about light offering to induct neutrals. Honestly, that's what inspired me for Junin.

-Wade
Junin wrote on Thu, 25 July 2019 01:14

Palmis aint even on the wizlist and i doubt nyrisia gives a shit, but cool on the character assassination too. Glad I remembered why I don't play here again.
So you claim that you will quit conclave or delete if a imm says no, but you already stated that Nyrisia and Palmis are not around to say no, so its cool to break the rules.
Junin knew he was breaking "tradition" (I mean rule)and was playing off of Feroz's ignorance to do so.
Classy.

Re: Anything Goes? [message #1889 is a reply to message #1888] Wed, 21 August 2019 09:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kensei is currently offline  Kensei
Messages: 4
Registered: October 2018

the Shadow Dagger
Quote:
In the Early days of Conclave a Paladin was inducted, and made it to Wizard before a imm saw what happened and stepped in. The Paladin was allowed to keep his character after harsh restriction were placed upon him, and breaking any of those was termination of his character. The Leader who inducted and promoted the paladin was punished and removed from conclave as I recall.
1. The level of incorrectness of this statement boggles me. First the paladin in question was inducted by RIALLUS, so an IMM had already stepped in, and I certainly don't think he punished and removed himself. This was a roleplayed experiment that didn't work out then I approached Nyrisia years later to ask if it could be attempted again and she refused. She was against the idea of paladins in the house. But she's not in charge of Conclave anymore, is she? No, it's Palmis who is supposed to be guiding the house and where is he?

2. Don't support yourself with your alts.
Re: Anything Goes? [message #1890 is a reply to message #1864] Wed, 21 August 2019 09:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Serik is currently offline  Serik
Messages: 16
Registered: April 2018

the Monk Hero
Ayladriah, right? I think that's the Elf Paladin that was in Conclave. Or maybe she was an Elf Paladin in Light...

It's been a long time. Everything tends to get all muddled together and it's a surprise I remember anything anymore.

Anyways, I'm not sure what to make of new classes in the houses. I actually argued a few years ago to allow APs, NWs, clerics, and paladins into Conclave. I'm not so sure anymore, though. It doesn't fit Conclave, as Riallus envisioned it. Maybe if we implemented a different house with a different mission statement and different rules, it would make more sense.

As for Crusaders inducting other folks; they already do. Wizards can be inducted into Crusader, they just can't use magic like everyone else. Crusader always has been and probably always will be my favorite house, and I think the restrictions are both prudent and necessary. They've become ingrained into the house, and Crusader really wouldn't be Crusader anymore without the Code. Like Joja said: do we really want gangs of Crusaders running around and rolling over everyone like they used to? I'm not sure that's the answer here.

Re: Anything Goes? [message #1891 is a reply to message #1889] Wed, 21 August 2019 10:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Percula is currently offline  Percula
Messages: 6
Registered: July 2019

the Heroine of Divine Wrath
Kensei wrote on Wed, 21 August 2019 09:35
Quote:
In the Early days of Conclave a Paladin was inducted, and made it to Wizard before a imm saw what happened and stepped in. The Paladin was allowed to keep his character after harsh restriction were placed upon him, and breaking any of those was termination of his character. The Leader who inducted and promoted the paladin was punished and removed from conclave as I recall.
1. The level of incorrectness of this statement boggles me. First the paladin in question was inducted by RIALLUS, so an IMM had already stepped in, and I certainly don't think he punished and removed himself. This was a roleplayed experiment that didn't work out then I approached Nyrisia years later to ask if it could be attempted again and she refused. She was against the idea of paladins in the house. But she's not in charge of Conclave anymore, is she? No, it's Palmis who is supposed to be guiding the house and where is he?
Thank you for the correction about the Paladin, I was a fairly new player back then so all of the information I had on it was muddled by word of mouth. It does not change the fact that the House Immortals have ruled that non-mages are not to be allowed in Conclave.
Both Nyrisia and Palmis are the Immortals of Conclave, but have not been around in a while.

[quote title=Kensei wrote on Wed, 21 August 2019 09:35]Quote:
2. Don't support yourself with your alts.
I am going to assume you think I am Barker's Alt? I am not. I have known Barker since Jr. High School though. He can be a arrogant ass at times, but he is still one of my oldest friends.


This from around 10am system time today if you want to have imm check for multicharing
<963hp 1030mn 517mv> wh
[51 Fae Cle] (PK) [DEPRAVED] Percula the Heroine of Divine Wrath
[ Ant ] Xunkiira the Mangler
[ Dwarf ] (PK) Kahraman Pompaci the Barbarian Hero
[ Mino ] (PK) Barker Scar the Knight Hero, Warlord of the Neverending Crusades

Players found: 4

<963hp 1030mn 517mv>

-Sean not Jevin

[Updated on: Wed, 21 August 2019 10:21]

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Re: Anything Goes? [message #1892 is a reply to message #1886] Wed, 21 August 2019 12:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Alizaeh is currently offline  Alizaeh
Messages: 55
Registered: May 2017

the Enchanting Heroine of Object Manipulation
I propose a question. Or a quote.

What is insanity? Doing something repeatedly and expecting a different result.

None of us win when we are at each other's throats. I truly agree with the sentiment that trying new things, is and always was fun.

I also agree that there should be limitations on said characters.. or maybe make the lotto roller work for this?

What we need to start truly doing is having fun. That's why we are here.. to enjoy. Not to be at each other like this. For how many years have we spent with one another? I feel we can do better, and maybe barker does have a point. It is hard to accept the process when numbers are not presented tho.

We need something... or else we will fall into the same cycle we have since the repop happened.

Bein
Re: Anything Goes? [message #1893 is a reply to message #1888] Wed, 21 August 2019 14:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Junin is currently offline  Junin
Messages: 11
Registered: June 2019

the Anti-Hero of Pestilence
Ah! the dynamic duo! That's all I'll say about that.

Anyways. Glad somebody already corrected that 'assumed fact' about the paladin. I was pretty sure they were inducted by Riallus but wanted to confirm this morning before posting that. You know. Since I'm apparently muddying things with misinformation.

That stuff about PWS being SVD is... a horrid jumble. First off, to clarify, that's not how SVD functions. SVD is a save based on your total saves. that's why it's a save. If it wasn't a roll, it wouldn't be saves versus. lots of things are indeed 4x SVD. Toad was changed to 2xSVD I believe it was. So, there's a couple of ways this can actually function, and I'm honestly not sure which is actually implemented. In the case of a 1xSVD, it could mean that the roll has to beat the combined total of your saves (that seems unlikely though, as that could reach hundreds easily). It's more likely that SVD throw has to beat each of your saves individually. There's an additional difficulty to SVD however: it doesn't use your spellpower. So, if PWS is based on a 2xSVD model, it'd mean that it's actually harder to land than what I've already stated (unless you're running around with 0 saves. which is your own bad). The other half of that explanation insists that only resist/immunity helps you against stun. Which, would only be the case if it was a flat % chance of landing. So, Percula's explanation literally takes the worst of both possible scenarios. Then ends this fear-mongering incorrect breakdown in 'it might fail 'sometimes'', when the reality is, it'd fail the overwhelming majority of the time.

So... then there's this bit about lucky dicerolls and spellbane not stopping pws 100% of the time. I mean, I don't think Crusader has any room to talk regarding lucky dicerolls getting them killed. I can't think of any pk in their house not involving that exact function. However, once again, for the people in the back: For me to stun a Crusader, I have to beat spellbane, then beat the scenario above. Possible: Absolutely? Going to happen? Maybe if Crusader stops being Kag-huggers. Going to happen on a daily basis? Absolutely not. (Apologies to Puddleglum, who, surprisingly, should not be included in that comment. Good show, Puddleglum!)

There's also this bit of me being a walking deathtrap. As if I can just start wiping out the mud population. First off, if that was going to happen, wouldn't the log forum already be full of logs of me pwning faces? I mean, the ideal thing for me to do if that was my interest would have never been to raid Barker and just wait for the chance to pop up somewhere and be like 'moo ha ha!'. However, I'd also like to address the technical reality of what's being suggested here. It's being suggested that I as a human being will sit in market square Ethshar for hours on end waiting for prey, then when you are going to buy a green pill and strolling thru ethshar, you'll hit the gate and be instant splatted! muahahahaha!

So. This would involve me being in market square or another location for hours upon hours hoping one of the people I want to slay shows up, willy nilly, in town, while either having not who'd or being perfectly aware I'm around and likely hunting them. Then, the following has to happen: I have to see them on where or have an alarm staff trigger. Then, I have to hang my trio of spells, then execute them. I can't have them hung in advance, as hang drains mana constantly. Then, the stun has to land (see breakdown of what it takes for stun to land above). This is all, assuming, of course, that in the time it takes me to hang my spells, my target hasn't where'd at all and decided to either rush me, or simply walk back out of town. So basically... like any other pk in the mud, my opponnent has to be sloppy, or I have to be lucky. The addition here however is the hours of dedication to camping out somewhere. I imagine the next thing is 'But what about gate!'. Gate traps are gate traps, and a necro in clave is a more powerful gate trapper than an ap. Stun helps none at all. A necro would just sit in wait, then in the four rounds you have to recover from your gate, hang curse room and one attack spell to keep Jev... I mean, to keep anybody from logging out, then cast. Then the army would likely destroy the target.

As to Percula's last bit, the misinformation there has already been addressed, and it's been clarified that is indeed a tradition, not a rule. I would like to say however I am GLAD to see Palmis back on the wizlist (Hey there man! hope all is well!). The word policy is an interesting one, and might be applicable. However what's going on here with saying rule over and over again is obvious: Rule breakers should be punished! Rawr! do something horrible to him! I'd direct you to help rules. Those are the rules of the mud, and none of them are being broken here. Thus, tradition or policy. If somebody were to dishonor themselves in crusader they didn't break rules, they broke house policy. I broke Nyrisia's policy. I'm okay with that. Joja is around to say no. I've already clarified that in my previous post.

Regarding me being a class act: I certainly am. I've already offered to step down at the request of a Crusader immortal. You know what's not classy? Quoting out of context and improperly. there was a whole lot between that statement and my sig you decided to leave out of there, isn't there?.

Regarding immune negative: Barker has it. it's one of the 'pulsing' things he decided to loot off me. I was using it to try to take down tiamat.

[Updated on: Wed, 21 August 2019 15:19]

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Re: Anything Goes? [message #1894 is a reply to message #1864] Wed, 21 August 2019 16:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eldran is currently offline  Eldran
Messages: 5
Registered: August 2019

the Learned of Kung-Fu
I'll point out that it was and has always been a long standing rule that if you loot a pulsing item it is to be sac'd not just to be held onto and hoarded. But that's been along time ago as far as an AP in conclave hell it's not the end of the world if Junin's RP is good what's the big deal. I mean this isn't a Brethren AP running around. Junin is right about spellbane at one time I knew the percent chance that it worked, just like I also know there are a few spells that some mages get that are direct damage and coded to bypass spellbane entirely but to tell you which those are now I don't remember. I say let it be and have abit of fun. It's not exactly an Arcana AP walking around with venuport, brew etc like in the old days.
Re: Anything Goes? [message #1895 is a reply to message #1894] Wed, 21 August 2019 18:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Barker is currently offline  Barker
Messages: 29
Registered: August 2018

the Knight Hero, Warlord of the Neverending Crusades
Again, I'm going to try to avoid the flames.

First off, thanks for getting back on topic everyone. Even though I don't agree with most of what's been said, I appreciate that you addressed the point of the thread.

Wade, it is a rule. This 'tradition' thing was a good bit of rhetoric, I'll concede you struck a clever blow with that. But facts pls: It's in the help conclave file, https://www.darkmists.org/index.php?id=12, exactly who is allowed in conclave is clearly written. Fact, in the past when a leader has breached the code, immortals have stepped in. Fact: That you're doing so now, and Joja stepped in and said she wasn't aware of a policy change, I mean, mic drop I guess? Right?

Maybe the rule should be changed, I don't think so, but it appears that other people are cool with it. Ok, then if its all for fun and spicing things up, let's think of something similarly advantageous to add to crusader? Again, I feel this is just a reasonable response. If people are cool with changing conclave policies, let's toss a bone to Crusader? Thoughts?


Also...

Quote:
It's really not. you're just saying that because there's really no way to address it other than 'd'oh, you're right!'.
Well played sir, I am undone! You were magnificent in your retort, and I admit defeat! You got me!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9mbhr4YYRg

[Updated on: Wed, 21 August 2019 18:50]

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Re: Anything Goes? [message #1896 is a reply to message #1864] Wed, 21 August 2019 19:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eldran is currently offline  Eldran
Messages: 5
Registered: August 2019

the Learned of Kung-Fu
Crusader's bone back during the Arcana days was the fact the old houses where anti magic and they could literally gang anyone when they felt like it. The only spot that you could use magic was at the guardian if I recall correctly. Crusader does not really need a bone at all. Your not facing an AP that is venuporting to you with necro's and elementalist and their army's. So let's not act like an AP in this version of Arcana (Conclave) is anywhere near as potent as a NW AP running around in Arcana. And let's be honest I'd rather fight an AP in clave vs an AP is Brethren any day of the week.
Re: Anything Goes? [message #1897 is a reply to message #1896] Wed, 21 August 2019 19:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Junin is currently offline  Junin
Messages: 11
Registered: June 2019

the Anti-Hero of Pestilence
Nice help file! It sure is written there. So is a lot of other material. No apps, no mastery, led by Riallus... apparently we're entitled to 18 members...
So, if I'm understanding you correctly, houses do not change after original inception, is that it? because man, how many editions of the code is there?
Even more amusingly, the in game one is similarly out of date and yet still vastly different.

Oh! we're doing a fact montage! This should be fun. Fact: In the past, an IMM themselves inducted a hybrid class. Fact: stating she was unaware of a policy change is not asking me to leave. Fact: only stating half the story in a small factoid format doesn't really do much. Fact: rules are listed under help rules. Fact: You've yet to show how massively advantageous me being an ap in clave is in any meaningful way.

And yes! by all means! Add something similarly advantageous to crusader. Like some sort of half warrior that branches over into magelike, capabilities... Oh wait. Wait, you can already induct those? Well damn. There you go I guess.

[Updated on: Wed, 21 August 2019 19:51]

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Re: Anything Goes? [message #1898 is a reply to message #1897] Wed, 21 August 2019 20:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Berghalad is currently offline  Berghalad
Messages: 20
Registered: October 2017

the Hero of the Dancing Blade
I haven't had much time to read the notes or forum with a busy work schedule.
I was amazed to see so many responses to my little note regarding the POTENTIAL
of a neutral entering the Dome should they lead a non-sinful or repentent life.
It was my attempt to increase the roleplay of the Inquisitors to help such
hopefuls down that path but none have shown but a fleeting interest. With such
being said, I spoke to Brodie about it as well to give a neutral the POTENTIAL
to enter the Depraved but I am unsure of the suggestions he had in that regard.

All in all, neutrals have very little option save enter the Clan or enter the
Conclave. None of what I suggested had immortal support but then again, we've
heard crickets for months in that regard save the occasional Joja sighting
which is refreshing. Considering none took the chance, I did not overstep my
bounds but if such was seen as such, I have little regret in what I did. The
beehive needs to be poked a bit to get the creative immortal juices flowing.

As for Junin, I am in full support what he accomplished and he has my seal
of approval with his stellar roleplay. We've had our odds in the past but
who doesnt have a spat here and there with a younger sibling. We are here
to promote and make the mud grow. Stagnation does not foster that. Alas,
thats my two cents and you can take it for what it is.

Berghalad
Re: Anything Goes? [message #1899 is a reply to message #1897] Wed, 21 August 2019 22:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Barker is currently offline  Barker
Messages: 29
Registered: August 2018

the Knight Hero, Warlord of the Neverending Crusades
Help dirt kick hasn't changed in awhile. I think it's still accurate. 18 members, I believe that's still accurate, though admittedly less enforced. But I have been told twice as leader to make sure that distribution existed, so as far as I know, it's still legit. Houses do change, by immortal decree. The code was updated wasn't it? Does the conclave help file in the game say anything about inducting other classes? Please share.

Fact checker: Who was the imm, what was the class, and what was the final resolution? I.e., a long happy career with many other such hybrids inducted, or a short boot.
Fact Checker: I never said she was asking you to leave. Again, my point is only, as was her original post, if Conclave starts an arms war, should she keep it going in crusader. I think yes.
Fact Checker: Which relevant part of the story did I miss? You have pointed out quite a few irrelevant points, like a lot, but I think I've tried to stay on task.
Fact Checker: Are house rules listed under rules helpfile? Please share?
Fact checker: I gave a concrete example. There is nothing stopping you from travelling around with your buddy using venueport, and in your no lag state executing a hang trap. That is a more powerful combo than what was in Arcana or Brethren. You really only need 1 thing to be OP. Hang, on certain classes, is OP. At least that's my feeling.

Quote:
And yes! by all means! Add something similarly advantageous to crusader.
Nice! Thanks man. Its great to see through cool discourse that we can come to an amicable agreement.

Quote:
Like some sort of half warrior that branches over into magelike, capabilities... Oh wait. Wait, you can already induct those? Well damn. There you go I guess.
DOH! Smile I really did think, for like, a heartbeat, he was willing to give some ground. For like a half second. Like, maybe I inspired him to compromise and bargain. lol
Re: Anything Goes? [message #1900 is a reply to message #1899] Wed, 21 August 2019 22:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kensei is currently offline  Kensei
Messages: 4
Registered: October 2018

the Shadow Dagger
Quote:
Fact checker: Who was the imm, what was the class, and what was the final resolution? I.e., a long happy career with many other such hybrids inducted, or a short boot.
A. Drinlinda. Necromancer with sword skill inducted into Covenant. Result: Well RPed and not remotely overpowered. In fact, quite a bit gimped. Remained in house til it was disbanded.
B. Riallus. Paladin inducted into Conclave. Several (4-6) months in the house including being engaged to a character that eventually became immortal.
C. Isimsiz. Defender/Berseker hybrid inducted into Depraved. Character was around for a year plus, was highly OP, branded, and house elder.

Each one of these instances was a trial run at something with varying results. The necro RPed his ass off to get the sword skill to get into Covenant, and wasn't given full house powers to prevent overpowering. The paladin was almost entirely an RP character, got her ass handed to her a LOT as she was formerly a Crusader and far and away from overpowered. Almost all of us remember the warrior from Depraved, a special situation that led to an immensely OP character but was still allowed to happen.

Bitch and moan all you want about Junin. Whether he is OP or not he is likely to be one of a kind, a one time experiment. You want to hang out at your guardian and totally break your own house "rules" by being a coward when you see him, go for it. To me it's the pot calling the kettle iron if you do that. Keep hoarding, don't lose those shinies. But until someone actually tries to fight him in the open, you can't call it an arms race. There's no definitive proof that he's OP in any way.
Re: Anything Goes? [message #1901 is a reply to message #1899] Wed, 21 August 2019 22:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Junin is currently offline  Junin
Messages: 11
Registered: June 2019

the Anti-Hero of Pestilence
Why do you mix this numbered and then non numbered format. It's haphazard organization. pick one.

Non numbered point: it's not accurate, membership is based off of opposing house, and you're absolutely aware of that. If not, I don't think you have a basis to be discussing the depths of mechanics of the game your attempting to. So, pick one there. Dirt kick has nothing to do with anything in this conversation and is a red herring. It does not say anything about inducting other classes. It is also outdated, once again, and mentions Glod. The point is you're attempting to use ancient material that no longer is applicable in a variety of ways and pick just one point to enforce. As if enforcing was even up to you. This was all pre nerfs, too, when Riallus was strict about only using Conclave powers against saders specifically because they were op. I've addressed how the power level has escalated on one half and not the other already.

1. Riallus, Paladin, Went through with the character.
2. Cool, you're entitled to your opinion, don't know why that's a mic drop moment...
3. Literally the rest of the post. The way you quoted it makes it seem as if that's the entirety of the post. Why else would you literally skip without any indication to the sig. Perhaps you including the sig without indication that there was skipped content was a mistake, but I doubt it.
4. None. because there aren't house rules, there's policies/traditions. I distinguished between these and rules already, and why that distinction is important, in a previous post. If you have further questions on them i encourage you to reread.
5. I gave you multiple reasons why that's not feasible, or as absurd as you make it out to be. And more than a handful of counter examples, at your request. Also, what buddy? Am I in cahoots with every active player that you don't have on your little 'shit on the other kids' slack?

Cool discourse? Your posts are riddled with direct insults, condescension, over the top commentary meant to incite, misquotes, far flung paranoia concepts, and misinformation. I think cool discourse from you would be a welcome refreshment.

Compromise and bargain? Why would I be doing that with you, precisely? Even if I were inclined to, how could I, when all you want to do is attack certain points of a post and ignore the rest of it? Are you in charge in some function i'm not aware of? Up there coding for the mud, fulfilling your commitments or something? Your input is input. You're not Dormammu, I haven't come to bargain. I've entertained these concepts and arguments rather than let Joja, or Palmis, make a decision based off of you and your cousin lashing out in hateful outrage. If you think any of this was about getting either of you two, who are both well known to loathe me, to agree with me, you are sorely mistaken.

Do you have anything new to add, information wise, that I (or another individual in this thread, I have a feeling you're not actually reading it...) haven't already addressed?

[Updated on: Wed, 21 August 2019 23:13]

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Re: Anything Goes? [message #1902 is a reply to message #1864] Thu, 22 August 2019 04:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Percula is currently offline  Percula
Messages: 6
Registered: July 2019

the Heroine of Divine Wrath
This is just getting old Wade. First off I brought up the potential for abuse with well before I knew who played Junin.
Here is the link to the topic.
https://www.darkmists.org/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=561&a mp;a mp;start=0&

Now you are trying to make this look like a personal attack on you because I don't like you. Funny. Yes, I can not stand you as a person. You are way to Bipolar for me to deal with, and that is why I removed you from my life a long time ago. As I said I had no clue you were Junin until you made a point of signing -Wade to one of your Junin posts. This fact changes nothing about what I or Barker have said about Conclave, what classes are allowed to join, or about the potential for power abuse of said combinations. These things are not in dispute. Anyone who has ever played Conclave knows that only Channeler, Elementalist, and Necromancer are to be inducted. Barker even found you a nice help file to show this information was available to anyone willing to look. You of course attack Barker and I. Why? Because this helpfile clearly states what we have been saying for a while now, and pointing out that it is outdated is weak deflection at best.(Oh and it repeats the acceptable classes in the help Conclave helpfile in game as well, but we should probably ignore that one too) You can also stand by your claim that anti-paladins are weak, but I know how powerful they can be. The potential for abuse is to great for me to stay silent. If you do not like that I have a problem with players abusing bugs, oversights, and mechanical issues then perhaps stop looking for them to abuse? All we can do now is wait until Palmis or Nyrisia come back, and hope that the abuse does not take place in the mean time.

Now back to the actual topic THE ARMS RACE. Well I mean Come On Joja! replace whirlwind with SWING! I am sure that will make the mages happy.

-Sean

[Updated on: Thu, 22 August 2019 04:27]

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Re: Anything Goes? [message #1903 is a reply to message #1902] Thu, 22 August 2019 11:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Alizaeh is currently offline  Alizaeh
Messages: 55
Registered: May 2017

the Enchanting Heroine of Object Manipulation
You guys ever read what you say after a day or two away and feel something?

I feel an overwhelming sense of humiliation. I am probably one of the younger ones
Of you guys... but seriously? You guys sound like school children saying, no, your wrong.

Junin will always test the lines, or try to find something crafty. I can remember a few of
His characters and saying wow. I can dislike him at times but I have to say he will
Try with anyone and always has an ear open for fun if it can happen.

I can remember Korrick, one of the coolest characters ever and you rp'd your ass off
To get it and deserved it and I enjoyed all the time I spent interacting.

We all have a way of approaching uniqueness, whether a non talking, neutral seeking dome,
Or anything along those sorts. Look at the centaur with rungekuttas brand.

Crusader should get something in return... but isn't that only really fair once something truly
Unique comes along that proves themself and makes the above go hmmm?

Yes. In my time conclave NEVER accepted APs. But do cigarettes still cost 5cents?

If we go by what is made is what is sewn. Then I guess you're right. But in an evolving world...
With changing faces and trying to bring people into here, who are not oldies, or people who played
Five years ago... I'm sorry you're wrong..

So at this point. Doesn't matter what us say. You guys duke it out. Good luck.

[Updated on: Thu, 22 August 2019 11:17]

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Re: Anything Goes? [message #1904 is a reply to message #1864] Thu, 22 August 2019 12:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eldran is currently offline  Eldran
Messages: 5
Registered: August 2019

the Learned of Kung-Fu
Belgarion went thru alot when he went from a Paladin to an Anti Paladin and got Runge's Brand. Well Deserved
I remember with Aethor busting my balls off to get Carenthir's brand and being one of the lucky few to ever achieve it same with Adorno's.
I'm ok with the time's evolving if a neutral can RP his butt off and sway himself to become a truly good neutral I'm fine with that
I'm ok with AP's in Conclave to you just I guess evolve the house to Arcana again I'm sure brew and some of the other spells are still
in the code somewhere.

Point is if you bust your tail for something and earn it so be it. JJ is the most fair person I've ever met next to Xyza and if she is ok
with it we should be to, because I know she's watching closely and the moment she feel's it a problem it will be handled without question.

Just my two cent's from an old haggard Vet
icon9.gif  Re: Anything Goes? [message #1905 is a reply to message #1904] Thu, 22 August 2019 14:32 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Barker is currently offline  Barker
Messages: 29
Registered: August 2018

the Knight Hero, Warlord of the Neverending Crusades
Quote:
I feel an overwhelming sense of humiliation. I am probably one of the younger ones
Of you guys... but seriously? You guys sound like school children saying, no, your wrong.
lol, yeah... I was actually OOC talking to Eldran about exactly this earlier this morning. I used to have a policy, if Wade posted, just stay off the thread. I don't know what it is, but I always make myself out to be a jackass when I get into it with him. That's no excuse though. I definitely got carried away here. Apologies, again... I'm dropping off this. In Joja I trust, she'll get the job done one way or another.

As for me being afk at the samurai, I'd like to address that briefly. I do it out of responsibility for my leadership position. I only need to pop in for like 1 hour a week to keep my shinies. With all my leaders, I try to log in at least 3 to 5 hours a week so people have a chance to find me. I try to do it at consistent times as well, and for the most part it works. But I work, am married, etc... it's hard for me to give undivided attention for all that time. So I log in while I'm getting ready for work. I've met with quite a few applicants already doing this, and inducted a couple since being warlord. A few times someone will ping me, and be gone by the time I'm out of the shower, but most wait for my response. And then I quest them. Right now I'm clocking in the most hours for a crusader, and this is why. I'm sorry if that bugs people. Kill me if you can, as I said in the other thread, I'm prepared for it. But there may be retaliation... Smile

Sorry Wade. I still think your play here was wrong, but I could have classier in my responses to you. I was childish.

And for good measure, apologies to anyone else I offended. I tried to ignore everyone's comments but Wades after a point, but I did respond to Rhea's. With him at least, I showed slightly more tact, but I apologize as well if he or anyone else was offended. I don't think he was based on our conversation, but still.

Honestly, everyone had pretty decent points. And I do want to reiterate that if you're serious about helping, the application process does work, and the donations will be appreciated. GL;HF everyone.

[Updated on: Thu, 22 August 2019 14:40]

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