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Two House System [message #1358] Fri, 18 May 2018 21:46 Go to next message
Desra is currently offline  Desra
Messages: 41
Registered: April 2018

the Barbarian Hero
I would like add a new, serious forum to a previously discussed topic.
In specifics, however with a well thought out idea.

I believe Crusader and Conclave would be a great two House system.
If anyone has seen the series 'Arthur' on Netflix, this would be exactly that.
The King (Arthur's father) hated magic and hunted down all witches who were perceived as evil.
Magic was in fact the very thing that kept the kingdom and its heir safe.
I believe the strong feeling for magic and purity would provide better rp than the 'Light and Dark' rp.
One of the four original Deities (Now three to my understanding, minus Awathre?) and main Goddess of all
time is Xyza and she is the Goddess of Magic, she is magic itself (Not Vordok *Grins*)
The concept of when evil was introduced to mortals was during the rebellion against dragons who were in
charge of teaching about magic to mortals (This is to my understanding anyway, please correct me if you know better).
Either way, this would be a good point to start the 'light vs dark' but the rebellion of mortals against dragons (The lady
Xyza herself in essence) would be the premise for 'purity vs taint'
This encompasses all races, good-neutral-evil, as all are welcome in both houses. It would promote unity (and discord within the house if you want, up to an elf and drow if they want to like each other or not) against the other House for the stronger purpose of belief (purity or magic).
Two houses will promote more traveling, more House wars, and Two leaders (I vote for Verrak and Vordok, assuming they are not same person, if they are same then Iddius seems well) who will bring structure and have invested time to rp and pk.
This consistency of housed people will bring new members who want to stick around because there is activity actually going on, epic house wars, and in turn when the player base grows then we can add another two houses, back to four.
Four houses spread the numbers thin of us who want to actually pk.
I am absolutely certain this will change the game for the better and will help us keep a better eye on who is hoarding so they can be held accountable (The leaders should be given abilities to see into the inventories of their members and keep tabs.)
I know and respect peoples lives are busy but there should be a rule if someone does not login one a week, there clothing be stripped and sent back to the mobs. If someone is going to be gone for more than a week, they should send a scroll to the immortal in charge of their house and be pardon so that their gear not be lossed (Assuming they are not gone for that long, which if gone too long then forfeit the gear anyway).
I also believe that we should not have the ability to make more than 2 characters at a time:
1 Housed character and 1 Unhoused or
2 Unhoused characters. This will prevent hoarding as well or at least help us to maintain tabs on who is hoarding.

It will also fill the Houses because people are not logged on with their third and fourth and fifth characters, wasting time training or whatever, with mal-purpose to just watch who is on and look at their gear so they can plan with their primary and secondary characters.
Also it should be made known what two characters belong to who to prevent multi-charring which is still happening.

Whether the reader agree or disagree, please post something. Let the Immortals have as much perspective as possible to make a good decision, not just shoot something down right away because it has been spoken before. We did not have enough input the first few times around and I hope that changes. Every person who plays this game, please put something here because YOUR PERSPECTIVE IS NEEDED AND VALUED by all of us, whether you think it is dumb or not or whatever, just put your thoughts please. We need to do something to get this game going and it is not up the Immortals alone to do this but the players as well. Please take some initiative to help the cause.
Thanks to everyone who participates!
If you think a different set of two houses would be better, please elaborate with great detail on why, I would love to see it.
Josh


Re: Two House System [message #1359 is a reply to message #1358] Fri, 18 May 2018 21:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Desra is currently offline  Desra
Messages: 41
Registered: April 2018

the Barbarian Hero
Um, the movie I quoted in the beginning is actually called 'MERLIN' it is a great watch to see why crusader and conclave would be great starts.
Re: Two House System [message #1360 is a reply to message #1358] Fri, 18 May 2018 22:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Desra is currently offline  Desra
Messages: 41
Registered: April 2018

the Barbarian Hero
If or when this takes place, I also think after the reboot takes place, all gear should be stripped and sent back to mobs. Lets have a fresh start, a complete fresh start with new characters and opportunities to get some coveted gear.
The only people this should anger are those who are hoarding, lets see who pops up and says this is not a good idea.
I myself will even keep away from all the coveted gear (I dont even know where 90% of it is anyway because it is never in when I explore and I dont even know where to begin) just to prove it is not what I want but for all people to have a chance.

My next thing to ponder will be what kind of rp will it take to rid of the Dome and Depraved.
Evil-good-neutral can even have their own purposes within the House, Conclave for example can have a drow in it that serves Isimsiz, continuing in the purpose of Depraved because of religion. An elf can worship Dielantha, and carry on the purpose of the Dome. This could work if people think and become creative on how to carry out a purpose within a house where you are supposed to be united, but it is very challenging because of racial or religious odds.
Hunt those who are Unhoused (hopefully discourage the second character altogether) The light members of conclave can join together to try and overthrow the dark members (like democrats and republicans in the U.S., hate to use that but it is true) Trying to gain some advantageous ground for light to be in control or evil to be in control.
Come to think of it, I believe this would buff up the religion rp within the Houses to each have a unique purpose and a motivation to get branded, if a religion is chosen at all.

Re: Two House System [message #1363 is a reply to message #1358] Fri, 18 May 2018 22:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Desra is currently offline  Desra
Messages: 41
Registered: April 2018

the Barbarian Hero
I read in the post by Rhea Riskel said a two house system is too limited. That houses need to be revamped first.
How is it too limiting? How about specifics instead of just putting those words in peoples minds 'its too limiting'
Your influence is too much and people will be swayed with that.
Lets pull out some critical thinking, do we just not want to put work into this?
What needs to be revamped about the Houses?
These are the details we need to make change, not superficial answers that kill the thread.

I dont think Crusader and Conclave needs too much revamping if they are the Two Houses.
One thing I would change is where the Houses are located.
There is a city of pure and I always wondered why Houses were not in Cities. I think there was one in New Ethshar a very long time ago.
I would put Crusader in one City and Conclave in another city. Have guards posted at the gates and have to fight past them to get in (Like the dwarfs guarding the way the Lord Wyrmsbane, cant flee past them unless they are killed) and make them as tough as those very dwarf, not too much but not too little.
I highly disagree with the Two house thing being too limited, especially with the original post of potential rp through religion and racial discord. There is much potential, not limiting at all. The number of Houses are limited but at this point it has to be, look where four houses have gotten us, no where.
Re: Two House System [message #1364 is a reply to message #1358] Fri, 18 May 2018 22:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Serik is currently offline  Serik
Messages: 12
Registered: April 2018

the Monk Hero
I have mixed feelings about cutting houses. For the vast majority of the time I played DM, we had six houses. Light and Ancient, Enforcer/Justicar and Outlaw/Marauder, Crusader and finally, after Riallus played around with the idea of Scholar, Conclave. Covenant, Brethren, and Valor were around, but they weren't really inducting and all three of them just sort of faded away.

To be entirely candid, though, I'm sure a lot of it is nostalgia. When I first heard that DM was cutting down to four houses, I thought it was a pretty bad idea. For as long as I was around, the houses really defined Darkmists for me. The epic battle between good and evil, the never-ending crusades that exulted physical prowess against arch-wizards that could conjure typhoons and manipulate time. Outlaws breaking free of societal norms and evading the long arm of the law. At one point, I had at least one character in almost all of the houses(not concurrently) and it kind of hurt a little when I found out that they were just going to disappear.

It may increase the rosters in the remaining houses for a while, but I think that it may drive folks away as well. The biggest problem I see here is the lack of choice. When all the houses were up and running and I wanted to roll a certain class, at least I had a couple of options. If I want to play a warrior? Has to be a Crusader. Channeler or necromancer? Looks like it's Conclave or bust. What about Anti-Paladins and Night-Walkers? if I roll one up now, at least I can join Depraved. They can't get into Crusader because they use magic, and they can't get into Conclave because the house doesn't induct hybrids like Arcana did.

When I think about rolling up a character for a house, it seems pretty restrictive to be pigeon-holed into a single one.

I understand that it isn't really feasible to have so many houses with a small player-base, so maybe it would help the game survive and, hopefully, thrive.

Again, I'm not really sure how I feel about it. Pros and cons.
Re: Two House System [message #1365 is a reply to message #1364] Fri, 18 May 2018 22:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lestrade is currently offline  Lestrade
Messages: 44
Registered: May 2018

the Enchanting Hero of Object Manipulation, ArchWizard of Twilight
I don't agree with decreasing the number of the houses at all. We need options for the game to continue to thrive. This is all sparking from a place of ill-will... Maybe limit that one player can only lead one house, sure. However, I feel we would only hurt the game to cut down to two houses.

If we did, it shouldn't be Conclave and Crusader as the two remaining, you'd have to pick two houses that can house everyone. IE Lawless vs Law. But why do that?

What we need to do is fix broken classes and systems to make the game more enjoyable to play. To discourage "throw away characters". Even if we were at a two house system, Conclave has lost one of the sole people who would fight them. So, means we'd be right where we are now just with only two houses.

Doesn't seem to solve anything.
Re: Two House System [message #1366 is a reply to message #1358] Fri, 18 May 2018 22:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Desra is currently offline  Desra
Messages: 41
Registered: April 2018

the Barbarian Hero
Thank you, Serik. That is very insightful.
So another revamp would be to allow half mage half warriors into Conclave (Or if they wanted to join Crusader it is an option for all classes though clearly harder).
I agree with your statements about having options for more houses. To have more Houses is definately the way to go.
Thats why this idea is temporary, I should have mentioned that but I guess I did in an indirect way.
The idea is temporary, just to grow is the intention of it.
Get people to remember the adrenaline rush of house wars and pk, get the new players a taste of it as well.
Help them to understand rp and how it compliments pk (Minius rping with Desra, taunting him in the Tarot Tower
and hiding. Then finding him in the Tower later to bash his skull). The veterans, because there are only two houses, could really help new players and those 'pk only' players to rp more.
Yes, more Houses in the long run. But there is a common idea that to move forward, sometimes we need to step back and then move forward.
To finish a maze, we might get very far, only to realize it was the run away. We have to go back to finish, that is the goal is to finish.
We want to finish with many houses right? I believe going down to 2 for a time is the answer.
@Serik, thanks for pushing the snowball down the hill.
Re: Two House System [message #1367 is a reply to message #1358] Fri, 18 May 2018 23:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Desra is currently offline  Desra
Messages: 41
Registered: April 2018

the Barbarian Hero
Thanks Lestrade for you input.
Have all things that sparked from ill-will failed?
Whether a cause start from a good or bad thing, regardless change is needed when something is not working, why fixed something if it does not need fixing?
A young man witnesses a murder on his parents and the murderer tried to come from him but he somehow escaped.
Now the young boy is a man, the number one detective in all the city.
His passion, his anger burns against murderers, cheaters, liars, and he wants to fight for justice for all the people. Is this bad, though it came from ill-will, is it not more light a righteous wrath for justice?
Houses are not the only option for this game.
What about religion as I stated? There can and should be sub-purposes for the characters.
Purpose: House
Sub purpose: Religion, non-religion, race based like the Drow clan or drakontas sporos, many more if we just put our minds to it.
Broken classes can be fixed along the way, what system is broke? This is a little general, can you elaborate on a specific system that you think needs tweaking?
I have not really seen any detailed arguments or persuasive speech for two houses, Lestrade.
Law and Lawlessness for two Houses, Outlaw and Justicar?
I recommended Crusader and Conclave because this game feels very strong toward magic and purity.
And I saw you said that not at races can join these Houses but that is not true, both conclave and crusader except all races, and even in conclave there are different sects to my understanding for good, neutral, and evil.

This is a good point to bring up, not everyone is going to like a change, but there are others of us who want change.
So far, those who dont want to go down to two houses have gotten there way and this game is not 'continuing to thrive' but rather declining.
Some old players have come back, that is awesome.
But what about new players, are there new players out there who are recent within the past 3 years? Can you speak up and input ideas from your fresh perspective?
We cannot satisfy everyone, but we can do our best to compromise.
How about not only shooting the idea down, but offering a compromise, any ideas about this?
Re: Two House System [message #1368 is a reply to message #1358] Fri, 18 May 2018 23:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Desra is currently offline  Desra
Messages: 41
Registered: April 2018

the Barbarian Hero
Some people I would personally like to hear from:
Riskel (or Brofirir whatever you go by)
Iddius
Verrak
Griffth
Vistral
*If two or more players are the same mind behind them, sorry I did not know.
Vordok
Yregha
Rhea (what do you and Malignus talk about, what were Malignus' words about the matter?)
Briella
Calynian
Trudie
Lelak
Trisola
Minius
Immortal staff: I have not seen Immortals reply to posts too often about matters like these, is there a reason I am unaware of?
I would like to know have the Immortals even discussed this at full length or is it just brushed off? Do you consider it too much work and no one has the time? The Playerbase often is left in the dark about this, at least those of us that have no connection to Immortals (Is there no tolerance for Immortals to socialize with players?)



Re: Two House System [message #1369 is a reply to message #1367] Fri, 18 May 2018 23:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lestrade is currently offline  Lestrade
Messages: 44
Registered: May 2018

the Enchanting Hero of Object Manipulation, ArchWizard of Twilight
Are you seruously referencing a murder scenario to a game.... or is this a Batman reference?

I don't even know what to say anymore.... other than I'm just gonna play and alchemy for people. Hah
Re: Two House System [message #1370 is a reply to message #1358] Sat, 19 May 2018 00:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Desra is currently offline  Desra
Messages: 41
Registered: April 2018

the Barbarian Hero
Its an extreme reference relevant to the point, there are many examples where good things have come from 'ill-will' and yes batman did come to mind Smile

I understand you do not have anything to say, these topics are not easy.
And to be honest, I did not start this topic about two houses, I am adding on to Zhantariel if you read the original posting of all this.
I do agree with Zhantariel who I am sure has different ideas about what exactly going down to Two Houses would look like.

I am only trying to get a detailed explanation and argument (debates are fine, critical thinking is supposed to challenge the ideas of others without people getting upset... we learn this in school) from other players instead of superficial answers and biased opinions. Most people cannot handle conversations like this, most people don't like what they perceive as 'confrontation' to get things done. Why do you think the game is stuck not moving forward?
Many people will form their opinions about me and not like me and thats' fine, I am not here to be liked but to enjoy a game.
My rp will speak for itself as far as 'likeable' in game and even others will hate me in game, it is all fine. If you cannot provide good details or elaborate on your superficial answers that is fine, just move on with respect that's all Smile
When you think of this game, do you really think about the wild west, sheriffs and bandits or outlaws, train robbers?
I don't think this game is based on that but more Magic and Purity has a heavy theme here.
Why do you have to give up so easily, why not just elaborate on why you think Outlaw and Justicar (Or whichever Houses you were speaking of)
would be best? Or stick by your wanting more Houses option, disagree with me and bring new angles to the conversation...
Either way no hard feelings. This is not a post to get emotional over, many people have discussed it but only superficial.
On Rhea post, it said Rhea spoke with Malignus 'and a few others'
Would be nice to know their input.

What was said in the 'Saying goodbye' post is done and over. There are 3 Major witnesses to foul play and the Immortals have what they need against that individual. This is a post for the mature who can handle the difficult challenge of debate and critical thinking.
Once every one has their input it is done. Then we can think of other ways to grow the player base.
All respect due to you, Lestrade. Thank you for your posts Smile
Re: Two House System [message #1516 is a reply to message #1358] Wed, 29 August 2018 00:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eru is currently offline  Eru
Messages: 2
Registered: August 2018

the Shaolin Master
You could raise the amount of members by decreasing the availability of houses. There could be ways to keep it interesting if you did. The real issue here is how would you keep it interesting? The same group fighting the same group over and over again does not sound that fun.

If you did go down to two houses you honestly would need to create two new houses. None of the houses that are in play at the moment would be suited for such a system. The really only way I could see it being entertaining is to push through something with clans and the elite from the clans send people to the two houses and the houses battle from there. The clans strive to be able to send more people in by achieving some sort of goal. I mean we have a clan system that doesn't really get used. Clans could be formed for whatever reason the person creating it sees fit and it doesn't have to have a lot of members. With clans being the base for houses it would keep RP changing and fun. Plus if there is not a clan that you like...make one that one of its goals is to send members to one of the houses or both.

This is just a late night spur of the moment idea, don't critize to harshly.
Re: Two House System [message #1517 is a reply to message #1516] Wed, 29 August 2018 07:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lestrade is currently offline  Lestrade
Messages: 44
Registered: May 2018

the Enchanting Hero of Object Manipulation, ArchWizard of Twilight
The idea itself isn't bad, Eru. The major issue that I could see with the idea, would be that we would need a very active coder to build the two new respective houses. Then they would also need to develop the system or "pushing people through the Clans".

It isn't the amount of houses issue, I honestly thought that at one point myself... what it really is, is a lack of interaction on a whole. Very easy to avoid PK, next to no bonus for raiding or even defending. Once the item is taken 9/10 people log out till the timer forces the release of the house item then just logs back in. No one can blame them. We have also seen the best of the best gear in the hands of single players, which have turned them into powerhouses that are nigh unstoppable so people just don't fight them anymore. And well, as I said it's super easy to avoid PK.

A lot of classes are "One trick ponies". Get immunity to lightning and have spellbane, I'm screwed (Hah) or an item that cancels out spells in the area and I cannot fight a 'Sader effectively. Now, I still do fight but some people are just like "Eh, screw it no point" and walk away.

I want to clarify this isn't bitching, it's just being honest about the current system. When everything is stacked against you, why bother? There was a recent log posted of a powerhouse combo V. Light. I haven't really seen the person who posted that log since. Light V. Depraved struggle has been going on for awhile now. The two houses don't seem sustainable because they cannot keep people. Out of boredom or a crazy beat down, there doesn't seem to be a happy medium.

Conclave V. Crusader has been plagued by really ... "drama" that was outlined in the earlier parts of this post. And it hasn't seemed to bounce back till Vheryn stepped up to the plate (which he is doing an amazing job at). So hopefully that turns around.

If you think back to the days of 30 players, it was different. We were all younger, you would log in to see Riallus, Joja, Dielantha, etc etc. There would be Black Knight events, house wars left right and center because people WANTED to fight. There was a list of gear that was always hoarded by the normal people, and the rest was spread out across a whole playerbase keeping the fights fairly well rounded. It's hard to compare then to now.

We have all grown up, gotten busy etc. That goes not only for us as players, but for the Immortal team.
Re: Two House System [message #1519 is a reply to message #1517] Wed, 29 August 2018 21:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eru is currently offline  Eru
Messages: 2
Registered: August 2018

the Shaolin Master
Oh I never expect any of that to be implemented. With such a low player base its still not a viable solution anyways. I'm just throwing ideas out to get people thinking of the best way to handle the situation. I mean DM isn't as lively with RPing and PKing going on constantly. Imm's out and about pushing along stories or just hanging out. There are no large events going on. Maybe a change could be good, maybe it will be a horrible idea. Who knows.
Re: Two House System [message #1520 is a reply to message #1358] Thu, 30 August 2018 11:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kalamvar is currently offline  Kalamvar
Messages: 5
Registered: February 2018

the Hero of the Dancing Blade
I, myself miss the old days of the multiple houses, the continual fighting, running around with others only to find yourself being raided or deciding that since there were only two Legion members on, it was time to hit them hard and fast. However, from what I've seen, there really isn't a large enough playerbase to support such a system. You can't log in and do a 'who' and seeing 50, 60 players. Those were the glory days and unfortunately, I don't see them coming back anytime soon.

With that in mind, going to a two house system isn't a bad idea. The most likely would be the Crusader and Conclave options. This would enable the continued battle of those who believe in magic versus those who think it is detrimental to the world. I'm thinking that clerics and paladins might be viable options in the eternal crusades just because they don't cast the spell, they pray to their chosen deity for their intervention to grant whatever spell they are asking for.

Personally, I can't offer a whole lot here; the mechanics and game have changed so much that I don't know which way to go. I was happily playing almost daily (and for several hours a day) until my ex decided to take the internet when she left and then came back and took my computer. I'm a bit irritated that my character was forced to timewipe with my absence; I spent so much time working on him, his RP, and learning some of the mists again. I love the changes, but I didn't get to be involved enough to make much of an impact. I also believe in one character at a time, especially if you are housed and/or branded, and even more particularly, leadership. While this doesn't add much to the diversity of the game, it gives people a chance to find the leadership of whatever house they're looking to join. Having three, six, twenty, whatever alternate characters reduces everyone else's chance to continue on with their own storyline (this all by itself is extremely frustrating!) just because the leader decides to log in once every three days to act as a leader for twenty minutes.

I would completely support two houses. I am looking forward to getting a new computer and internet access again so that I might rejoin the mists, but until I can afford it - especially the computer - I'm going to have to be gone. I'm sure that the great changes and improvements will continue on, the world of the mists will continue on without me, just as it has for all of these years.
Re: Two House System [message #1527 is a reply to message #1520] Thu, 30 August 2018 21:48 Go to previous message
Lestrade is currently offline  Lestrade
Messages: 44
Registered: May 2018

the Enchanting Hero of Object Manipulation, ArchWizard of Twilight
Contact IMM staff, they may consider giving you back Kalamvar given the circumstances. Just food for thought.
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