Home » Official Dark Mists Forum » House War Weekend » 12th Weekend: Crusader vs Conclave Results
| 12th Weekend: Crusader vs Conclave Results [message #51440] |
Mon, 08 March 2010 00:33  |
Joja
Messages: 396
Registered: May 2000 |
Deity of Love, Loyalty, Diplomacy & Nature
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The sun slowly disappears in the west.
House War Weekend is finished. Congratulations to Crusader!
Next weekend's House war will be between Ancient and Light.
House raid statistics for the past 2 celestial days:
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House Ancient
- has raided 6 time(s) against other houses (5 with enemy defenders present.)
- has been raided 2 time(s) (0 with defenders present.)
- was raided 1 time(s) by houses, 1 by clans, 0 by unhoused.
House Light
- has raided 4 time(s) against other houses (4 with enemy defenders present.)
- has been raided 58 time(s) (19 with defenders present.)
- was raided 56 time(s) by houses, 2 by clans, 0 by unhoused.
House Crusader
- has raided 466 time(s) against other houses (385 with enemy defenders present.)
- has been raided 135 time(s) (135 with defenders present.)
- was raided 134 time(s) by houses, 0 by clans, 1 by unhoused.
House Legion
- has raided 0 time(s) against other houses (0 with enemy defenders present.)
- has been raided 5 time(s) (1 with defenders present.)
- was raided 0 time(s) by houses, 1 by clans, 4 by unhoused.
House Conclave
- has raided 36 time(s) against other houses (36 with enemy defenders present.)
- has been raided 16 time(s) (15 with defenders present.)
- was raided 16 time(s) by houses, 0 by clans, 0 by unhoused.
House item statistics for the past 2 celestial days:
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Ancient's item was down 48 ticks (0 defended, 48 undefended).
- dropped by House Light 2 time(s)
Light's item was down 109 ticks (61 defended, 48 undefended).
- dropped by House Ancient 2 time(s)
- dropped by House Brethren 11 time(s)
Crusader's item was down 157 ticks (81 defended, 76 undefended).
- dropped by House Brethren 14 time(s)
Conclave's item was down 161 ticks (89 defended, 72 undefended).
- dropped by House Crusader 4 time(s)
Ahmose PRAYS: its 11:52. that 8 minutes could have made all the difference, you know.
It is 06:51:26 pm, Day of Freedom, 19th the Month of Winter, in the year 181.
Lomenthiel is in first quarter.
Erohach is in waxing crescent.
Gu is in last quarter.
Dark Mists started up at Sun Mar 7 22:06:17 2010.
Dark Mists is scheduled for an automatic reboot at 05:00:00.
The system time is Mon Mar 8 00:01:43 2010. <----- system time (12:01:43 a.m.)
House Crusader item holder statistics for the past 1 celestial days:
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- Garkum (of House Crusader) possessed the item for 78 ticks (54m and 44s total time)
- Joja (of House Crusader) possessed the item for 16 ticks (5m and 17s total time)
- Nododoci (of House Crusader) possessed the item for 137 ticks (1h, 0m, and 51s total time)
- Uastyrdzhi (of House Crusader) possessed the item for 343 ticks (2h, 1m, and 6s total time)
- Dythilza (of House Crusader) possessed the item for 109 ticks (38m and 3s total time)
- Xunrae (of House Brethren) possessed the item for 222 ticks (2h, 34m, and 25s total time)
- Portrend (of House Brethren) possessed the item for 256 ticks (2h, 58m, and 29s total time)
- Jakchu (of House Brethren) possessed the item for 15 ticks (10m and 1s total time)
House Conclave item holder statistics for the past 1 celestial days:
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- Nododoci (of House Crusader) possessed the item for 1 ticks (32s total time)
- Garkum (of House Crusader) possessed the item for 120 ticks (1h, 23m, and 43s total time)
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Notes:
Joja holding the Gauntlet for a little over 5 minutes: We had an unscheduled reboot in the middle of things and the Gauntlet was the only House Item in play at the time. Since it wasn't down at an altar, I loaded it at reboot and handed it to the last person to hold it on his return.
The time when the War Weekend ended coinciding with 11:52 p.m.: The system time is a few minutes off what our computer times might be. My home computer also showed 11:52 p.m. But as shown above, the system time was past midnight when I took the readings. Right after the announcement of the winner. Keep in mind that due to the discrepancy in the time, when the War Weekend starts, it's midnight system time but 11:52 p.m. Friday night on our computers. So the two days remain two days' worth of 24 hours even so. Ahmose is right, those 8 minutes could have made a difference. Garkum could have put the Cube down for those 8 minutes and the margin of winning would have been 10 minutes instead of 2 minutes.
Margin of winning: I was keeping track of it on Sunday. Earlier in the late morning/early afternoon when I checked the balance, which can be found when typing in 'help houses', I got this:
This weekend's House war is between Conclave and Crusader.
House Crusader has the power advantage by 50 minutes.
Later, after one of the Crusaders had the bad luck of losing his connection for just long enough, the Globe was taken and then the Gauntlet successfully raided for and taken. This produced:
This weekend's House war is between Conclave and Crusader.
House Crusader has the power advantage by 37 minutes.
The time got whittled down when retrieval proved difficult. Finally, after I left and came back from having eaten some supper, I saw this:
This weekend's House war is between Conclave and Crusader.
House Crusader has the power advantage by 1 minute.
Anyone who was present knows that I gave Crusader trouble over that one minute. Uast-etc. was happy with the small margin of victory. As far as I was concerned, there was plenty of night left for things to go wrong and for that number to turn in the other direction. It took almost forever to get a group of Crusaders to visit Conclave and add to the margin of victory. The final margin of victory:
This weekend's House war is between Conclave and Crusader.
House Crusader has the power advantage by 2 minutes.
Very exciting photo finish sort of thing. Ye all might want to consider that only two Houses touched the Gauntlet this past weekend: Brethren and Crusader. Brethren did all the work to keep the Gauntlet down. But Conclave did put up a decent fight at the last during the raid on the Tower, and one of them (Nethudir) did an excellent job of keeping the Cube off the floor after the second minute of advantage was gained.
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| Re: 12th Weekend: Crusader vs Conclave Results [message #51441] |
Mon, 08 March 2010 00:44  |
Garkum (retired)
Messages: 102
Registered: December 2009 |
Warlord of the Crusades, the Squatter
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If conclave doesent wanna participate properleh in dis event, let our enemeh be sumwun dat dos. Ahm sure Brethren wud raise a voluntareh hand.
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| Re: 12th Weekend: Crusader vs Conclave Results [message #51443] |
Mon, 08 March 2010 05:19 |
Ahmose (retired)
Messages: 145
Registered: June 2009 |
the Elemental Hero, Kral of Drakontas Sporos
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blast! foiled in my attempt at smart-assing
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| Re: 12th Weekend: Crusader vs Conclave Results [message #51478] |
Mon, 08 March 2010 20:26 |
Vinnesh (retired)
Messages: 580
Registered: May 2009 |
Hope of the Magi
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Garkum: If you fight two wars, expect one half to preffer to see the other half win over you. Even if we never showed, you can still lose because they hate you more.
I'm not going to explain why what you did was stupid. I do not agree with it, I do not condone it from either side, and I think if your going to win, win on your own merit or in what was nearly the case for Crusader lose by the fact that your warring two houses at once and both of them may or may not do everything possible to see you lose that war.
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| Re: 12th Weekend: Crusader vs Conclave Results [message #51483] |
Mon, 08 March 2010 23:51 |
Sanada (retired)
Messages: 239
Registered: April 2009 |
the Elemental Hero
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Crusader's item was down 157 ticks (81 defended, 76 undefended).
- dropped by House Brethren 14 time(s)
Wowski. My old house didn't do anything this weekend. *facepalm*
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| Re: 12th Weekend: Crusader vs Conclave Results [message #51484] |
Tue, 09 March 2010 00:02 |
Garkum (retired)
Messages: 102
Registered: December 2009 |
Warlord of the Crusades, the Squatter
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| Vinnesh wrote on Mon, 08 March 2010 20:26 |
Garkum: If you fight two wars, expect one half to preffer to see the other half win over you. Even if we never showed, you can still lose because they hate you more.
I'm not going to explain why what you did was stupid. I do not agree with it, I do not condone it from either side, and I think if your going to win, win on your own merit or in what was nearly the case for Crusader lose by the fact that your warring two houses at once and both of them may or may not do verything possible to see you lose that war.
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The only reason they're not grabbing your item is cuz they're not allowed to raid you. Yet both houses are at war. To me, this non-raiding policy doesn't make any sense. War or no war, Brethren will attempt to kill you should you be caught outside. But since you're warring (or so would be the general consensus regarding keyhole vs orb), then what's holding Brethren or Tower back from raiding each other? If someone answered that, I'd be a lot less confused.
I'd be a lot less pissed about this situation if Brethren could be allowed to raid both houses, since they're at war with both, but that isn't happening. And when there finally is a hero ranged conclaver around besides you (Vinnesh, cuz we all know how stupidly hard your quad scrolls hit), we don't even have enough time to WALK over to the Tower before they quit out almost immediately, even if its just a 2v1 ratio. Then you'll blame us for raiding without defenders cuz they left right before we got there.
So what ends up happening is:
Your supposed enemy, the brethren, is winning the weekend war for you solely because it's allowed to raid us and not you, even though they're at war with both. This comes from downing the gauntlet regardless of who it is. Is brethren allowed to drop the cube? Gee... let's see the stats. Judging by that, their policy's answer is: NO
Basically speaking, if you did not show up AT ALL this weekend, with any claver present, and we stuck by our raid-when-defenders-present-only policy, you'd have won without putting up any fight whatsoever solely because of the time brethren would have the gauntlet down. How in the world would anyone consider that fair?
I don't know how you run wars, but wars typically include raids to me. I have been known to play extremely nicely in terms of only raiding with defenders (unless told otherwise, and both clave and brethren alike), but when stuff like this happens, I get more and more discouraged and start asking myself why I bother holding back.
- end of rant.
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| Re: 12th Weekend: Crusader vs Conclave Results [message #51487] |
Tue, 09 March 2010 06:22 |
Vinnesh (retired)
Messages: 580
Registered: May 2009 |
Hope of the Magi
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.... why do you bother holding back?
Ok Garkum, I had withheld the big gun because this isn't the place to argue Crusading Policy. And because I'm the natural enemy of about 1/3rd your House (Dwarves anyone?). But this is getting ridiculous.
When did Crusader become more about justifying one's actions and less about adherance to the written, moral and implied word of the Crusading Code?
If I have to scrub the Code line for line to find it I will, but I am HIGHLY confident that in the Raid Procedure section it states that regardless of discarding honour during wartimes it is unacceptable for a Crusader to raid a House without a Defender present. So holding back is not a matter of willpower, it's a fact of the lifestyle your supposed to be trumpeting, pioneering, leading and embodying every living breathing moment. Does it suck? Yes. But you get beastly physical power in exchange for adhering to a set of rules that are incredibly strict.
Is it unfair that Conclave can win the weekend because Brethren can take the Gauntlet and not the Cube? The only reason we don't raid each other is because I recognise how psychotic it is to let Brethren do the exact same thing to us that they do to you. Yes they try to kill us (See my death log for examples) just like Ancient does. And we raid the Spire to kill them on select cases (Find out IC what ones and why). But anyone could take the Cube in your name as well, if we made enemies that way. This is how multiwarring is disadvantageous for you. Your the Warlord: If multiwarring is disadvantageous for you, find a way out of it. Broker a deal for War Weekends or something. I almost can't believe that I'm having to say some of these things. >.<
Crusader resorting to such tactics is such a dissapointing thing that I have purposefully revoked Conclave's ability to do it in hopes that I can save you from yourselves. Which is a ridiculous notion to be sure, but that's what it comes down to. Ball is in Sader Court now. Try not to pop it on your sharp wit and razor personality. =P
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| Re: 12th Weekend: Crusader vs Conclave Results [message #51489] |
Tue, 09 March 2010 11:35 |
Garkum (retired)
Messages: 102
Registered: December 2009 |
Warlord of the Crusades, the Squatter
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| Vinnesh wrote on Tue, 09 March 2010 06:22 |
If I have to scrub the Code line for line to find it I will, but I am HIGHLY confident that in the Raid Procedure section it states that regardless of discarding honour during wartimes it is unacceptable for a Crusader to raid a House without a Defender present. So holding back is not a matter of willpower, it's a fact of the lifestyle your supposed to be trumpeting, pioneering, leading and embodying every living breathing moment. Does it suck? Yes. But you get beastly physical power in exchange for adhering to a set of rules that are incredibly strict.
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7 - Raids: Attacking the Enemy Stronghold
Always remember that the Clan should not raid a House that has no defenders.
9 - War
II. During wartime, the restrictions of honor are lifted slightly as we show our enemies our full fury.
This implies that under certain conditions during wartime, it is up to the leadership and elders and immortal leaders to make a collective decision on how much of the restrictions of honor we will lift. By default, it is something we 'should not' do, but we are not going to be doormats for anyone. Unacceptable, as you put it, is not said anywhere there.
E. The option to treat enemies with full honor always remains open to any Clansman during wartime
People who've interacted with my character enough times know that I have tried to be as fair-minded as possible, and try to return a lot of the non-pulsing gear to those I've fought and killed. I personally dislike raiding without defenders but if I have to do it under certain circumstances or orders, I will.
Now after having posted this and rereading your suggestion on making ties during house war weekend... I think that suggestion is a lot more ridiculous. Are you suggesting that crusader makes peace with brethren for two days on a routinely biweekly basis? Or even a ceasefire treaty... what would we be doing during that weekend when conclave doesn't even bother showing up half the time? Heck even the concept of sader making deals with the enemy is pretty hard to roll with.
This wouldn't even be an issue if conclave played an active role during the house war weekend. Stats say that the gauntlet hasn't even been >held< by a claver. They'd sooner quit than wait for us to actually make the trek to the tower in time. (Besides maybe you and one or two others... you know who you are. But then again your quad scrolls are strong enough to account for two people...) And hardly would they stick around when the odds are stacked against them. If they leave right before we get there, what does that say about the house? Are we supposed to withdraw? Either way, we withdrew anyways.
Now I'm not saying that crusader is solely the perpetrator of cowardice amongst the conclave roster. We can all bank on the possibility that demons will try to kill you as soon as you step out. But that possibility has always been the same for our side. I don't know how many times we had to deal with the possibility of them lurking in the treasure room waiting to pick us off while we try to raid against conclave. But most of the time, we raid regardless of that danger. Win/lose, it's all part of the game.
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| Re: 12th Weekend: Crusader vs Conclave Results [message #51490] |
Tue, 09 March 2010 13:07 |
Joja
Messages: 396
Registered: May 2000 |
Deity of Love, Loyalty, Diplomacy & Nature
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No defenders means nobody from the other House. If someone is there (in game) who can type 'get key' or 'get symbol' or whatever it is that needs to be gotten, there is a defender.
As far as I am concerned, if a raid is begun and the last defender quits out after the raid has begun, it should continue. Abusing these 'rules' can result in a simple deletion from the Crusader Code book much as the time Darkwood felt that the stealth-warn-before-hunting-or-attacking chapter was abused and had it removed (the torn page from the 13th Edition). If we delete the part about 'no defenders' then we won't have to deal with quit outs and various interpretations designed to be unfair to those required to follow the Code. Also, I hate being told that my interpretation of the Code is wrong and some magic user's interpretation is right.
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| Re: 12th Weekend: Crusader vs Conclave Results [message #51491] |
Tue, 09 March 2010 13:13 |
Sai (retired)
Messages: 64
Registered: May 2009 |
the Elemental Hero
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for me, personally. Its the 10 or so Evils, with me being the only goodie around. That prohibits me playing or being able to defend. Garkum, from forum posts, and otherwise, I've never found you to be exactly the model crusader, well. Let me rephrase, never the one to exemplify the honor befitting a crusader, usually you raid with the odds in your favor, versus not. I mean, no one wants to try and die, so saying that you raid, despite risks, is a very unnessicary comment. But, I'm not all angelic either, I've left, after the required time, with no one raiding me when it was like 2-4v1. Usually because I know that your relying on the cheese of your class to do something. Usually, when I have defended, I've had no trouble with repelling you, so, I can appreciate and value when you decide to make it 1-1. But usually, you like to bring mass numbers against the one conclave around, and usually, its one who has trouble defending themselves. (Class limitations, not skill).
Don't try to play the Honor Card, no Crusader can in dealins with the Conclave, they use the same logic and tactics as we do, or anicents do, or leigon, or any house really. I've admired the Crusades for the ideal (And for the house Divine Leadership because Joja rocks), but rarely do I see the players of Crusader, exemplify the honor aspect to a T. At the first instance, that code is tossed out the window.
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| Re: 12th Weekend: Crusader vs Conclave Results [message #51492] |
Tue, 09 March 2010 13:36 |
Garkum (retired)
Messages: 102
Registered: December 2009 |
Warlord of the Crusades, the Squatter
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To be fair, Sai, the same could be said for yourself. Out of all the raids I've done in the past two weeks, only once had you partaken in it, and that was to save Aquilinus after I successfully raided and killed him in a 1-1 (the lag was a problem for both parties, but with me getting pummeled by the spectre and him, it's hard to say that I had the advantage just shearly from the damage I'm capable of doing on sporadic occasions). And even after you showed up, I attempted to atleast try to fight on a 1v2 offensive raid since I didn't quite kill the Spectre yet. Since I found it too difficult, I withdrew. What I'm more surprised about is the part where you didn't even bother to give chase. As an Archwizard of (arguably one of the most popular sects of the house) Dawn, are you doing everything in your power to act as the model Archwizard?
In the past month, not once have I seen you raid us. In the past month, all that power you hold as an archwizard could have gone to someone who fought to protect and proliferate magic in more active roles than simple light-aligned elven xyza-worshipping orb-allying roleplay (to sum up... please tell me when your conditions of an ideal time to fight is so that maybe in the future I'll be reminded and *only* raid you on those conditions however unfavorable they may be to me). I may not be an ideal crusader to you, and granted it's expected since it's my first sader character, but I can safely say I am proud that I have fought for the crusades in the earnest, and idealistic manner I can personally come up with. And yes, there has been a times where I truly did defend, without quitting out or fleeing right away, 1v4 defenses. But they were not against conclave, no. Because conclave spares so little time in the realms that their numbers don't even have a chance to accumulate.
Oh and I'm reminded... You're a good aligned char with 10 or so enemies that are evil in your range? Well, that's wonderful. So is our leader.
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| Re: 12th Weekend: Crusader vs Conclave Results [message #51501] |
Tue, 09 March 2010 17:10 |
Nathuel (retired)
Messages: 5
Registered: January 2010 |
the Knight Hero
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Ok I have to step in here, I've kept silent as long as I could. I played a sader before becoming a brethren. Some of you know who I played as sader some of you don't. For those of you who do know, you know what I say is truth. The sader I played was always respectful and always upheld honor, I take offense to you Sai, saying that no Crusader ever has or had honor when it comes to dealing with Clavers because that's a downright lie. For one, not only that but what you may consider honor is completely different from what someone in Crusader does. It's like saying samurai had honor and shinobi didn't, which in their own little clan they had their certain code of honor. Don't ask me what it was because I don't know every race/class/house has their own peculiar sense of honor.
Second when it comes to Honor the Code is thrown right out the window? Maybe you haven't read the Code maybe you've played a Crusader but I don't care either way because if you read in the first pages it states that the lifeblood of the Clan is HONOR and glory. I sit here and watch you Clavers bash Sader for attacking when there isn't a defender, it's as Joja said really if you want to know the truth so long as there is someone able to pick up the symbol or key or whatever then there is a defender technically. Out of respect and HONOR the heroes of the Clan normally don't raid when there isn't a hero claver around.
Third I remember when Brethren was raiding Crusader with no defenders, which we still do but that's another story for another time. We still waited to raid with a defender present and then they did it one time too many and we started raiding back when they had no one to defend. So if Clavers aren't gonna be around and let Brethren do their dirty work, then why have the Conclave house, makes no sense to me but then I'm just a lowly player with no connections. I mean honestly how many of you Clavers stick around when Brethren and/or Saders are around? Probably none, at least Sader has the guts to stick it out half the time. Now I'm not saying Crusader is perfect or everyone in it is, by all means no one is perfect. But Conclave obviously needs to be revamped in a serious way if Clavers aren't on enough to bash Saders in game and have to resort to the forum.
Personally I'd love it if our order to restrain from raiding the Conclave, as a Brethren, was lifted.
Now I'm done flame away.
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| Re: 12th Weekend: Crusader vs Conclave Results [message #51508] |
Tue, 09 March 2010 20:05 |
Sai (retired)
Messages: 64
Registered: May 2009 |
the Elemental Hero
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Psh, ask anyone, I'm more in tune with the Dean and the Roleplay aspect of the Clave, not to mention the specific role Sai has that I'm playing for him. I've never been an offensive player with Sai, ask Sai one night why that is, and you'll get a response Garkum. And I've never left a raid when the Spectre has yelled. I can only recall one time where I didn't, and that was due to lag on my end (found out my roommate was torrenting something...I spent an eon trying to figure out why).
Sai is willing to talk to anyone, so Garkum, if you wish to use your mind, and find out more about one of the sides you smash, let me know, I'd be happy to speak with you.
And honestly, this whole defender business isn't new, I've spent about 2-3 years now in Conclave (with 2 characters, elves don't freaking die...Thats not a challenge to anyone.) but it was always disheartening to when you act civil, you get returned hell. I can name of a recent occurance where Crusader honor, was abused, where honor was shown, and dishonor returned. I know it's fair, but, honestly, the RP of the House is to be better than Mages, Demons, and to act with a code of honor. It'd be nice to see someone adhere to it, despite of a few elements. Anyway, Garkum, If I offended ya terribly, I apologize and welcome you to approach Sai IC and find out why I don't raid often :3
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| Re: 12th Weekend: Crusader vs Conclave Results [message #51510] |
Tue, 09 March 2010 21:09 |
Vinnesh (retired)
Messages: 580
Registered: May 2009 |
Hope of the Magi
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Joja: I am APALLED that you would threaten us with something like that. Just because we question it when it occurs your willing to consider removing it from the code? This is a ridiculous notion and I do hope you push it out of your mind.
To my notion, the Conclave had NO DEFENDERS. This would mean nobody to type "get key" when the Spectre died. At least this is how Garkum's note in game would have implied it. And Garkum has gone ahead and posted the line in the Code that would exemplify the point, and done exactly as I have preditecd to many: Attempted to JUSTIFY HIS ACTIONS by posting an exception in the Code as well.
This should not be about justifying doing what you do. The Crusades do not need to justify their actions, for their actions are absolute and beyond question. This is in the Code as well as last I have read it.
I hope this makes Crusaders think and decide to go ahead and exemplify Honour above and beyond necessary means, to truly shine as beacons of Honour and Purity, instead of Justifying their actions by the Code. And before you go and scream about being honourable or me not knowing honour or whatever bullshit bastshit insane argument you might throw out, I've had my share of Crusaders, Elders in the House, and I don't care if your living by the letter of the code because that's the bare minimum required to stay in the Clan. I'm pointing out that you can do better, and you should WANT to be better. The other options are far less appealing to, presumably, most everyone else.
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| Re: 12th Weekend: Crusader vs Conclave Results [message #51513] |
Wed, 10 March 2010 00:02 |
Joja
Messages: 396
Registered: May 2000 |
Deity of Love, Loyalty, Diplomacy & Nature
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APPALLED, are ye? Very cute, coming from the leader of the House that didn't show up at all two weekends ago except for the first couple or so hours of the weekend when they had the advantage, and toward the end when Crusader didn't have the time to attempt to turn things around. It was sheer abuse of the 'no defenders' rule. Conclave got it's high honor that weekend, and a week of enjoying the stats boost for 'winning'.
Crusader gained only 1 extra minute of advantage from raiding against the guy who was out of PK range after ye and the other heroes left, for a total of 2 minutes advantage for the win. It might have been more but he came and hassled Crusader, keeping the Cube off the floor. About which, that was a good thing, and he might not have retrieved it, but he did keep it off the floor, which was helpful to the Conclave side. Now, I know people think it's all a bad, dishonorable thing that Crusader waited until the one guy out of PK range was left to raid, but it's not dishonorable. As I said earlier, no defenders means nobody is there to type 'get symbol'. This guy wasn't in PK range but he was capable of getting the symbol. As luck had it, he didn't get it. (And a raid against the ones in PK range did take place. One Conclave fell. One Crusader fell. Crusader decided to stop for a while and reconsider. I think the Crusader who fell had to rearmor himself.)
I don't go around erasing things from the Code without good reason. Right now we have had one weekend of abuse (2 weekends ago) where the enemy House didn't show up. Not enough reason to remove the 'no defenders' clause. For now, the part in the War chapter about full fury of the Steel Clan will cover that problem. Crusader employing that full fury are not dishonorable. Darkwood himself gave the House that option due to abuses in the past. I'm not saying I'm going to erase it this week or before the next war weekend our Houses have again, but I am making it known that continued abuse of the Code will result in a review and an alteration. The War Weekend situation is a different one from the rest of the week, and it might require a chapter of its own. Right now I'm just observing, and Crusader mortals are also observing, how the War Weekends are working out. Every Monday after the War Weekend ends, the stats are posted. The stats were very telling 2 weekend ago. They were very telling this past weekend, as well.
Using Brethren to do all yer raiding is not really a good idea over the long run. Eventually, those guys are gonna want a piece of the winning action (the stats boost), and they're not gonna get it. They're gonna eventually realize that yer using them as slave labor.
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| Re: 12th Weekend: Crusader vs Conclave Results [message #51514] |
Wed, 10 March 2010 00:28 |
Sai (retired)
Messages: 64
Registered: May 2009 |
the Elemental Hero
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We sure are forcing them to do all of our work for us. I mean, Really, I'm sitting there with Xunrae, having some nice tea while Kavardise goes and gathers the gauntlet for me. It's a swell time.
On a more, serious note. Honestly, Brethren tried to keep the tie. But, using these weekends are unfair representations of a house with 6-7 folks inside it. I am usually not here on the weekends? Wanna know why? Well, last weekend, I went to see Alice with some friends (That failed, but we hung out til around 10 and then played WoW for a few hours.) then Sunday, I went home and visited with my nana. Thats usually the same thing for all weekends because it's one of the few moments I have that I can go spend some time at home. So...REH
These weekend wars are stupid :/ Have been stupid, will CONTINUE to be stupid. I've listened to all the thoughts, seen ancients hold the item for 75% of the weekend. boggled when we won via the Brethren (Maybe Crusades shouldn't have pissed them off huh. This Dual War is a bitch). We saw the same when we went to War with the Ancients, while juggleing the Crusader war, and now there's this orb vs Keyhole thing (not my Bag, I'm 100% Xyza thank you very much). So we're having to fight the Brethren, while they fight you, while the ancients pick us off...And I've gotten myself confused now...damnit.
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| Re: 12th Weekend: Crusader vs Conclave Results [message #51524] |
Wed, 10 March 2010 06:13 |
Vinnesh (retired)
Messages: 580
Registered: May 2009 |
Hope of the Magi
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It isn't as if we didn't try to get the Gauntlet on Sunday. There was a raid or two earlier in the day where a young one had the Gauntlet, was fought, died, and we missed the Gauntlet there by a looting. I wasn't able to kill the looter and odds turned very far south with some untimely logins so we withdrew for awhile. The Crusader who died in the counterraid died earlier that day as well. Total deaths on Crusaders side for the weekend were 5 (that I know of) with 2 Conclave deaths (again that I know of), those numbers influenced by the Brethren +1 on each side.
Yes the no-raid-defenderless rule is unfortunate. Yes it could cost them victories, but you know what? That is something I always though was a part of the price paid to be a Crusader. If Crusader wants this and needs this war weekend victory badly enough, they're welcome to go ahead and justify their actions continuously. I know that I have already addressed this by note in game, and if the Crusades are going to continue to follow this route of justifying their actions because their rules put them at a disadvantage which is the detriment they suffer for the powers they receive, i'm going to have less and less respect for them IC, and it is going to reflect in both my attitude towards them, and in my decisions about them.
Conclave's come to a turning point which I need to talk to a leading Imm about. It doesn't suprise me that we had nobody show up except me a bit early friday and on sunday (My day off work is Sunday so Friday/Saturday is limited by need for sleep and work).
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| Re: 12th Weekend: Crusader vs Conclave Results [message #51538] |
Wed, 10 March 2010 18:27 |
Segoir (retired)
Messages: 76
Registered: December 2009 |
the Hero of the Dark
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I have zero evidence to support this conclusion, BUT, I still believe it.
We aren't allowed to raid conclave because their already paltry numbers simply couldn't take it.
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Conclave's come to a turning point which I need to talk to a leading Imm about.
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I hope that turning point is your retirement. Other than your presence within the realms you have done nothing to help the conclave. I wish Sanada had kept the reigns, but hey, wish in one hand shit in the other.
Honestly, I love the idea of the Conclave. They have awesome powers, the ability to equally match crusader, and the ROLEPLAY to match crusader. What they dont have are good players and good leaders. Up until VERY recently i have hoped that the Brethren would lose our religious war and Conclave would survive. I can't think of another house that could be a more suitable adversary to the Clan than conclave. I've played both and I consider them very well balanced. The problem with conclave though, is that it's boring if you aren't huge into RP. And the people who are huge into RP tend to suck at PK. So they get raped, and then they stop playing.
Occasionally you get a good crew in Conclave, and they do well. But it's been so long since that has happened that i think players forget the potential of Conclave. I had a blast when I played. I'd love to see them get a good leader and some quality players. But i think the more likely solution is that they will simply get purged, and Nyrisia will come up with some other house for Brethren to become. Which is a pity, but seems to be the best solution.
[P.S.] I'm quite frankly sick of hearing complaints about raiding no defenders. We are fighting a four front war. Only a couple of people complained when there were only two brethren and they kept getting gang raped. Now everyone is whining. Are you sick of getting your shit taken when you aren't around? Make a deal with us. After all, we are sick of getting our item taken without defenders as well. The difference though? You have 4 houses you can pass it around to. Ancient will take the heart, that's it.
Stop going to war with us, seek diplomacy to stop defenderless raids, or STOP WHINING.
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| Re: 12th Weekend: Crusader vs Conclave Results [message #51539] |
Wed, 10 March 2010 18:51 |
Segoir (retired)
Messages: 76
Registered: December 2009 |
the Hero of the Dark
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Also, since Brethren is now fighting everyone but Ancient, could we do a Brethren Vs. Everyone war weekend? THAT could be fun.
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| Re: 12th Weekend: Crusader vs Conclave Results [message #51546] |
Wed, 10 March 2010 20:15 |
Yuja (retired)(old)
Messages: 40
Registered: September 2009 |
the Monk Heroine, Bearer of the Crest
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So that what? You guys can go collect all the house items JUST before the weekend, then sit around all weekend. Cause we know that 90% of brethren players, DONT HAVE LIVES.
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| Re: 12th Weekend: Crusader vs Conclave Results [message #51547] |
Wed, 10 March 2010 20:16 |
Vinnesh (retired)
Messages: 580
Registered: May 2009 |
Hope of the Magi
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Segoir: If you play who I think you played in the past, you've never liked me or my playstyle. EVER. In any of my incarnations. You seem to have this aversion to me being successful in various ways.
Whether my leadership style is a detriment to Conclave or not isn't for me to judge because I'm the subject. I can't lead this place exactly as I want to for a variety of reasons: Imm restrictions, limited playtimes, RP Restrictions, and others. I miss the good players because I don't play when they do, or I quest them strangely or I'm trying to do this, that, or the other thing with the Tower to try to reknew interest in it. Yes it is a RP intensive house in a war with one of the toughest PK houses out there: Crusader. It makes it hard to get both good PKers and highly RP-Oriented players: They are few and far enough between that everyone wants them. Including you Brethren.
If you have a serious suggestion as to what can be done to improve Conclave, I'll be willing to listen to it to see what I can do about it. But in all honesty the suggestion of me leaving is ridiculous at this time. I have stepped down before and left it to Sai and through a series of events ended up being the only option left to retake the Master role. So me leaving Conclave's Master Role is going to be highly dependant on someone beneath me being worthy of taking over the Tower.
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| Re: 12th Weekend: Crusader vs Conclave Results [message #51548] |
Wed, 10 March 2010 20:20 |
Yuja (retired)(old)
Messages: 40
Registered: September 2009 |
the Monk Heroine, Bearer of the Crest
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Sorry I wanted to post a side note upon my first post, but ended up forgetting.
If raiding defenderless happened years ago, you would probably be houseless, con pointed in some way, toaded, whirlwinded, something to punish you in some form or another for breaking this key ALMOST number one rule in most houses. It's now acceptable, because the IMMS allow it. I think it is pathetic. I mean you give no chance, or opportunity to people to even want to play when for five days in a row they sign on and their item is gone. When is it never gone?
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| Re: 12th Weekend: Crusader vs Conclave Results [message #51549] |
Wed, 10 March 2010 21:05 |
Sai (retired)
Messages: 64
Registered: May 2009 |
the Elemental Hero
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And for my part in this, I'm one of the RP who can't PK out of a paper bag types. I can defend decentish. But, y'know, I'm not the killstabitnow person.
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| Re: 12th Weekend: Crusader vs Conclave Results [message #51552] |
Thu, 11 March 2010 01:26 |
Ashengar (retired)
Messages: 95
Registered: August 2009 |
Avatar of Time, Evil King of Clan dr'Rhillzznae
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Feel free to explain why it's impossible to play if your item has been taken. I'll be prepared to respond to you at any hour because I also have no life.
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| Re: 12th Weekend: Crusader vs Conclave Results [message #51558] |
Thu, 11 March 2010 08:21 |
Segoir (retired)
Messages: 76
Registered: December 2009 |
the Hero of the Dark
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It makes it hard to get both good PKers and highly RP-Oriented players: They are few and far enough between that everyone wants them. Including you Brethren.
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I know. That's basically what I posted. You tend to repeat my posts.
As for bashing you, well I don't agree with the direction you've taken conclave. I played Hutcher, and then very BRIEFLY Lefakus again. I didn't care for your style as Hutcher, but then when your archmages attacked Lefakus, a former apprentice who was getting ready to reapply, that just infuriated me. The brief time I played before I just deleted was enough to determine that I didn't care for your direction of the conclave. As for specifically hating you, well I don't know who else you have played. It IS possible your playstyle rubs me the wrong way and i haven't liked your other chars. If that's he case, we can probably never come to terms. Sorry about that. If not, then I assure you I am just annoyed with the differences I saw in conclave with Lefakus since when I played as Arkeidavyck.
Anybody who knows Arkeidavyck knows that when I lead, I did no better. So I would be a hypocrite to say I could do a better job than you, you've already done a better job than I in most respects. But saying that is like comparing pennies. Being a shiny penny, or a dull penny, you still don't have much value.
Suggestions? A couple. Screw the attitude you have towards allignment differences, and screw them imms that like it. You don't have to snuggle with dark elves and illithids to work with them. Sader has done the job for years, but now you seem to promote dissent. You are a 3 alignment house, your goals are the same regardless of the reasons. Working together makes sense.
Letting your mages do whatever they want is also a mistake. And some of the people you have inducted, "Sutari", were just idiots. But to be fair, I'll admit that you aren't a mind reader and couldn't have known. But it does make me wonder how thoroughly you test your applicants.
But honestly, no one wants to play conclave anymore for the reasons I stated in my first post. My dislike of you and your style has little to do with conclave's failings. Your style isn't helping anything I assure you, but it probably didn't kill the clave either. If conclave doesn't get the boot, i'll probably go back to the conclave when brethren dies and try to help out. But I think you guys are screwed.
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And for my part in this, I'm one of the RP who can't PK out of a paper bag types. I can defend decentish. But, y'know, I'm not the killstabitnow person.
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Don't get me wrong, I love RP. There is nothing wrong with players who want to focus it. But again, they tend to lose enthusiasm when PK oriented players keep killing them. That's my point. You need both types in a house for it to work.
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So that what? You guys can go collect all the house items JUST before the weekend, then sit around all weekend. Cause we know that 90% of brethren players, DONT HAVE LIVES.
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This is a pure flame. I wanted to respond, but I will refrain. No good comes of that. Ashengar's sarcastic retort was the best one can do.
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If raiding defenderless happened years ago, you would probably be houseless, con pointed in some way, toaded, whirlwinded, something to punish you in some form or another for breaking this key ALMOST number one rule in most houses. It's now acceptable, because the IMMS allow it. I think it is pathetic. I mean you give no chance, or opportunity to people to even want to play when for five days in a row they sign on and their item is gone. When is it never gone?
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You seem to have this attitude that you are all knowing and understand the spirit of DM. You frankly don't. What you do know, is how to whine. I have some advice for you in my previous post. If you ARE going to respond, this is the one situation I would actually encourage you to emulate Vinnesh, and respond thoughtfully.
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| Re: 12th Weekend: Crusader vs Conclave Results [message #51559] |
Thu, 11 March 2010 08:41 |
Alrec
Messages: 453
Registered: January 2009 |
Lord of Redemption
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Segoir, the alignment differences you mention is something that won't be allowed to occur even if Vinnesh wanted to change it. Good and evils should not be working together even if they are in the same house. (Except in the defense of the house and house item.) Even then it is a fine line on how much to assist one another. We have alignments for a reason, and if you can't adhere to them, we'll change it, and you'll suffer the consequences. I'm just throwing that out there as a reminder. If you can't handle that then I recommend staying away from Crusader or Conclave, as they both have to deal with those restrictions.
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| Re: 12th Weekend: Crusader vs Conclave Results [message #51561] |
Thu, 11 March 2010 11:12 |
Segoir (retired)
Messages: 76
Registered: December 2009 |
the Hero of the Dark
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You don't have to snuggle with dark elves and illithids to work with them.
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The point isn't that they have to treat each other with respect or kindness, its that the goals are common and they should ignore the differences in pursuit of their own agendas.
You suck the fun out of these houses with your rigid adherance to your "moral differences." Didn't the FBI work with Hannibal Lector to stop a killer? Didn't Lex Luthor work with Superman to stop Darkseid?
I guess these aren't good examples becase they aren't real like DM. They're fantasy. Wait a second...
Bottom line, I heard a conclaver got changed to neutral for scribing scrolls for member of the Night sect. Schrader was threatened for an align change for attack goodie mages. And Vinnesh let his elves attack Dark Elf mages with Conclave powers because they were evil.
Enforcing alignment is one thing. Being unreasonable about the flexibility of alignments is another.
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| Re: 12th Weekend: Crusader vs Conclave Results [message #51562] |
Thu, 11 March 2010 11:18 |
Kavardisise (retired)
Messages: 106
Registered: August 2009 |
Skeletal Wraith, Seer of the Damned
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| Ashengar wrote on Thu, 11 March 2010 01:26 |
Feel free to explain why it's impossible to play if your item has been taken. I'll be prepared to respond to you at any hour because I also have no life.
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You didn't hear about the recent "welcome back" codefix that Fizzy put in? If a house relic is down, all players of said house are name banned. Good, clean, fun for everyone!
In all seriousness. I've noticed that there's been a discernible lack of Brethren enemies whenever we're on lately. Evidently nobody wants to log in to no powers? Me neither, but I still do and make an attempt. C'mon folks!
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| Re: 12th Weekend: Crusader vs Conclave Results [message #51563] |
Thu, 11 March 2010 11:53 |
Alrec
Messages: 453
Registered: January 2009 |
Lord of Redemption
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Segoir, There is a reason we have three alignments and not too, as neutral can work with everyone. The Conclave mage that was made neutral was for more than scribing scrolls. Traveling with a necro, mass hasting his army, sancing the zombies. There's more to these things than people care to make known.
Schrader was being threatened with an alignment change for attacking and killing lightwalker mages in non-raid situtations. That is completely correct. If you'll remember what has been repeated multiple times alignment comes before house. While I respect the fact that you disagree, the rules are in place as they are for a reason, and thus they should be looked at and followed.
Korrick has been a fine example of how to play a lightwalker in Crusader if you want to ask me. It can be done, and it can be done well.
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| Re: 12th Weekend: Crusader vs Conclave Results [message #51566] |
Thu, 11 March 2010 13:43 |
Segoir (retired)
Messages: 76
Registered: December 2009 |
the Hero of the Dark
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There's more to these things than people care to make known.
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I will grant you that. I don't think anyone could reasonably argue against it.
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Schrader was being threatened with an alignment change for attacking and killing lightwalker mages in non-raid situtations.
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This i will absolutely NOT agree with. There is a difference between the nature of a person, and the perceptions and beliefs a person holds. There is absolutely no way you can reasonably argue this. Don't suicide bombers think they are doing the will of their Lord? Weren't the crusades launched to reclaim the holy land from a percieved evil? Didn't the Germans feel that they had been slighted in the first world war, and that the jews within their country were to blame for all of their troubles?
You can be good, and still have terrible beliefs. Suppose for amoment, that god appeared and denounced abortion as evil. I would argue that people who believe abortion was ok, wouldn't consider themselves as evil, just mislead or ignorant. Would you call them evil? (This isn't a case for abortion. I'm pretty neutral on that topic.)
If Schrader believes that a good person could help bring about the end of the world by using magic, its ridiculous for him, as another good person, to allow that.
If a lightwalker in conclave thinks that the reason a necromancer wants to kill crusaders is simple personal gain, yet still wishes the end of the clan in order to free Thera's mages of oppression, he would help the necromancer.
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While I respect the fact that you disagree
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Appreciated
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the rules are in place as they are for a reason, and thus they should be looked at and followed.
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I had assumed they were in place to stop OOC breakings of alignments. If this isn't the case, what is the reason?
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| Re: 12th Weekend: Crusader vs Conclave Results [message #51568] |
Thu, 11 March 2010 14:08 |
Xurinos
Messages: 556
Registered: November 1996 |
the Ebb and Flow of Chaos
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You can be good, and still have terrible beliefs.
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Segoir, you are arguing moral relativism, and Alrec is towing the DM line of moral absolutism. I think this is the source of the problem here.
This is a fundamental flaw in DM in that it has the notion of alignments instead of "opposing views/forces". Newer MMOs (not necessarily RPGs, but many of followed this approach, too) pit players against each other for political reasons. For example, the real evil in World of Warcraft is a common enemy for all its races; Orcs are not actually evil. The same goes especially for the Warhammer universe, where many races struggle for survival in the universe, prodded along by the gods and so forth.
The fact of the matter is that DM is based on a system of absolute morality. The alignments are classic D&D alignments, and players are offered the extremes (Good, Evil, Neutral) with no in-between. It is simultaneously easy to understand these alignments and also difficult for players to really RP; we see this in Ancient, where the evil members are supposed to be competitive with each other, struggling for power, but are instead hanging out together like the best of friends. In real life, we play these online games because we either want the competition or, more often the case, we want the companionship.
Whatever the case, given the strict alignments, there is no "This guy thinks he is doing Good; therefore he is Good." Here is an easy measure to figure this out in any given situation:
No matter what the character believes, watch the character's actions. Goodie aggressively killing a goodie? He is not Good. Evil aggressively attacking anyone? Yeah... but helping a Goodie without benefiting for himself? No. (Benefiting your group's ideal is not sufficient for Evil.)
Does this help clarify?
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| Re: 12th Weekend: Crusader vs Conclave Results [message #51571] |
Thu, 11 March 2010 14:19 |
Alrec
Messages: 453
Registered: January 2009 |
Lord of Redemption
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Segoir, you are still not looking at things in the proper order.
Alignment comes first, and therefor if I am a centaur(imagine that) and am good. While I may have certain beleifs and plans for my life, how I carry out those beleifs and plans should be in line with the fact that I have been raised and created as a pure and good being. Thus I would see a necromancer as an abomination, one who won't let the dead have their rest. While I may not dislike seeing that said necromancer destroy my mortal enemies, I cannot in good faith aid said necromancer in doing such.
This is the conundrum(not corundum for all the enchanters out there), an evil has much less restriction about aiding lightwalkers. Double standard many would ask? yes it is, that is the nature of evil though. They'll do whatever to reach their goal. A lightwalker should they decide to do whatever to reach their goal, is not going to be considered a lightwalker anymore, as they didn't take the higher moral ground.
Now as I have stated, I understand that some of these beleifs were not as strongly enforced for a long time. I know years ago Adorno took them on pretty strictly. And I, as it fits the RP of my character as well am taking them fairly strictly. Now that doesn't mean I am out to get everyone for every tiny thing. And it also doesn't mean that I have the authority to change someones alignment at my own whim...yet at least  What I am doing, is taking on the responsibility of watching lightwalkers in particular to make sure they are acting the part of their alignment as they chose to do when they rolled their char. If they wanted to act neutral they should have chosen neutral, if they wanted to be evil they should have chosen evil. We chose an alignment upon creating our char, while that doesn't make every char the same, it does inherently apply certain "restrictions" to what is acceptable behavior for your character.
I hope that clarifies more where I am coming from on this.
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| Re: 12th Weekend: Crusader vs Conclave Results [message #51573] |
Thu, 11 March 2010 14:47 |
Korrick (retired)
Messages: 83
Registered: December 2009
Location: Missouri |
the Knight Hero, Bearer of Conscience, Leader of the Neverending Crusades
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What happened to Schrader was a series of events started by Sutari that lead to him being hunted by the dome. How do I know this? Bcause I played Schrader. Sutari cast mass haste on me while I was hunting a grey elf mage. He knew I was a sader applicant and told me to halt my assault againt the mage while hasted or I would be using magic. So a goody mage that was a hopeful for light cast a spell on a goody sader hopeful, and thought there would be no retaliation later. When I found sutari as a hero, of course I attacked him. He ranted and raved about how I was attacking him for no reason blah blah blah. Yes I was killing tower mages. But good or not they were my enemy. I never once hunted a goody mage other than tower mages at that point. Well besides Sutari. Then I get offered a chance to clear my sins so I was working on that quest when Dvorah dissappeared. I found Sutari, was fighting him when he ran to glyndane. I chased him down. A defender jumped in assisting Sutari so I killed him. This of course started the Crusader-Light War, I offered to settle the the whole thing with a duel to the death between me and Sutari. The Leader, I forgot who it was then, said no and then killed me in the standered light gangbang. This was after I explained what happened, why I was fighting Sutari, and why his defender died. After the war I just lost interest in Schrader. Hunters in Crusader suck. So I deleted, only to be told as my next sader, that Schrader was about to get turned neutral for his actions. Which pisses me off because Every action I took was roleplayed. Instead of the Dome mediating the conflict and trying to purify me, forced my hand into hunting goodies as well as everyone else.
I learned from schrader that the only way to play a goodie now is to ignore everything done to you if its a goodie doing it. Unless they directly attack you. Even then there is no certainty that you can kill them without reprecusions. I will never be rolling another goody for any house but Valor or light. Perhaps Conclave, because goodie clavers have the best powers. So I remain extremely cautious with Korrick and have taken many precautions to avoid upsetting the goodie gods.
-Sean
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| Re: 12th Weekend: Crusader vs Conclave Results [message #51574] |
Thu, 11 March 2010 14:55 |
Segoir (retired)
Messages: 76
Registered: December 2009 |
the Hero of the Dark
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Segoir, you are arguing moral relativism, and Alrec is towing the DM line of moral absolutism. I think this is the source of the problem here.
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I hope that clarifies more where I am coming from on this.
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Yeah, i get it. I just don't like it. I don't think we should 'always' compare ourselves with WOW. Most of the time it fits but we aren't the same game. *shrugs* Again, wish in one hand and shit in another. I don't harbor any ill will toward either of you, I just dislike this policy. There should be room for fuzzy in DM.
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| Re: 12th Weekend: Crusader vs Conclave Results [message #51576] |
Thu, 11 March 2010 15:04 |
Xurinos
Messages: 556
Registered: November 1996 |
the Ebb and Flow of Chaos
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I tend to use WoW since most folks know about it. This is not an implication that DM should become like WoW; it cannot and it will never. There is nothing wrong with taking good ideas from WoW and other games. I also mentioned Warhammer, and I could have mentioned a number of other MMOs, such as Shadowbane with its clan vs clan structure or Guild Wars with the political territories.
DM does have some room for fuzzy... I mean, even in D&D terms, the alignments have breadth. You just have to watch where you cross the line. Murdering goodies (even in revenge for insults or attacks) is crossing that line. Good forgives, loves, tries to inspire, etc.
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| Re: 12th Weekend: Crusader vs Conclave Results [message #51581] |
Thu, 11 March 2010 16:24 |
Garkum (retired)
Messages: 102
Registered: December 2009 |
Warlord of the Crusades, the Squatter
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| Xurinos wrote on Thu, 11 March 2010 15:04 |
Good forgives, loves, tries to inspire, etc.
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Unless you're a zealot or berserker or even a barbarian. Oh yeah... and there's thieves. Oh thieves...
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| Re: 12th Weekend: Crusader vs Conclave Results [message #51585] |
Thu, 11 March 2010 17:14 |
Vinnesh (retired)
Messages: 580
Registered: May 2009 |
Hope of the Magi
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I'm supposed to what?
Screw forgiveness. Condemnation for everyone!
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